Need help with dangerous situation - Page 1

I have a Mal that is about 14 months old.  She is a 60 pound female that I rescued about 10 months ago.  Up until the past month everything was going perfectly.  We trained, played and she got along great with the kids, two cats and my other dog.  Then, in mid November,  my other dog, a 2 year old Border Collie/Collie mix, had his leg broken when a trash truck ran over him right on the border of our front yard.  After lots of care, cost and rehab the dog's leg seems to have fully recovered.  His temperment, however, has drastically changed.  When anyone, mailman, water guy, friends, etc. enter the yard the Border Collie freaks out and circles and barks hysterically.  There was NO sign of this the first year and a half we had him. He was gentle and sweet and quiet as can be.   This problem is greatly compounded by the fact the Malinois now finishes what the other dog starts.  In other words when anyone other than the wife and kids enter the yard the Border Collie circles and barks the Mal sneaks behind the person and comes up hard on the hips and shoulder blades.  I've stopped a few incidents from escalating but last week a friend walked on to the property unannounced late at night and was badly bitten three times.  Needless to say they are now for the most part kept apart and never off leash or unsupervised.  Other than when out in the yard they are absolutely perfect.  Someone could walk in our home and they would be fine.  They are perfect on leash or in public or in the car or at the training facility or at the dog park---everywhere BUT the yard.  I've informed all neighbors/friends not to walk in our yard whether with or without without their pets--a common occurence before all of this started.  None of them can believe it, saying "No way, they both know and like me and my dog--they are both such great sweet dogs", etc.  I did take the Border Collie back to the vet to make sure there is no pain or residual damage to the injured leg but she seems to think the leg is fully recovered and I agree.  Basically the one dog sounds the alarm and the Mal rushes in to fight. It's like one guy talking smack at a bar and having his buddy right behind him with a  knife and gun.   It's a dangerous one/two combination and a volatile situation.  The BC's behavior changed and consequently the Mal is now following suit.  I've consulted two recommended trainers, both specializing in working breeds and specifically Mals.  One wants to come to the house with electric collars, prong collars and whatever else.  The other says click and treat with the dogs on a lead whenever anyone goes by so they associate differently.  Both trainers know what they are doing; they just have different approaches.  I have an appointment with a behaviorist who was a one time trainer at Andrews Air Force base where she trained Mals and GSDs for the President and so on.  That is in the coming week.  In the meantime I would greatly appreciate any constructive advice.  I, along with my family, love these two dogs dearly and do not want to get rid of both or either.  (And believe me, that has been suggested by many)  That will be a last resort but in the interim I want to try everything possible.  Thanks for reading and thanks in advance for suggestions.   

Neither trainer is going to help you. They are talking about using systems, I.e. pinch or food to retrain without seeing the situation. Nothing can be done until you have a working theory of what's going on.  It starts with the border so focus on that one. Complete separation of the two so the mal doesn't get any more neg influence.  Food has its place for this work,I don't believe the pinch does.  Sounds like the. Border is afraid. Don't know without seeing but that would be my working theory. I would then tailor a program to strengthen the borders nerve and teach alternative alert behavior after the nerve is thickened.  The mal I would socialize with everyone independent of the border and I would teach to come to the front of a stranger and offer a sit for a reward.  When the border is stable reintroduce the two and reteach everything to both of them.  I believe your border is afraid and frantic.  In your analogy I don't think he's talking smack I think he's screaming bloody murder! save me! and I think your mal is trying to save him by attacking the intruder. Teach the border to trust he's safe in his yard at all times and teach the mal that everyone brings him rewards if he comes up and asks for it with a front sit.

My two cents and I could be wrong.  Your job is to find a trainer who isn't pushing a "system" but can read your dogs, understand what's going on, and modify a plan to solve your problems.  Good luck, I wish you the best.

 

Is the property fenced?

And for safety I would keep dogs inside in crates when you are gone so things do not escalate any further;  you are liable if your dogs bite someone and for their own safety.  Good luck  Nan

VK4! The most simple question...a fence is never a bad idea...
The other problem - do you want social dogs all the time? In this case it might be enough, if EVERY visitor has some treats at hand.
Not the best idea for guard and working dogs, but good for a regular household with kids and dogs...

bzcz: That may be true about the trainers. For what it is worth both have been to the house and witnessed the behavior.  I have also recorded it to show the behaviorist.   I am curious what she will say.  I actually take the dogs to her and she write up a two month program. Perhaps the plan you are suggesting will come from her.   It could be a Godsend or it could be an utter waste of time.   I agree the Border seems to be acting out of fear.  If a big scary green monster came in to my yard and hurt me I suppose my behavior would change as well!   Also, I failed to mention in my last post that the BC also will circle and bark at me but that is so I will play frisbee---kind of a different energy.  I think your assessment is correct though---The BC is scared and the Mal comes to the rescue.   Just out of curiousity, what would be an example of an "alternative alert behavior" to instill?  Perhaps I should know that with two high energy dogs but I am not sure what that means.  Oh and by the way, thanks so much for your help and suggestions.  

vk4gsd: The property is electrically fenced---The entire front and back which encompasses roughly three acres.  The dogs never challenge the beep before the shock and have plenty of space.  That being said I can pretty well guess the next suggestion: I have a bid for a physical fence to separate th back yard.  That way the dogs will only be in the back yard away from animals, people, service men, etc that come to the front.  They will still have tons of area in the back---surrounded by woods.  The problem is the material and actual work are about four weeks out.  It will be installed in late June.  

nansgsd: we do have a crate in the home and the Mal likes to go in it to sleep.  None of the problems are in the home but I do have the crate.  Your point is well taken about being liable.  There have been a few incidents and if they were with anyone other than good friends I would be looking at potential lawsuits and possibly a visit from animal control.  (I found out after the fact that a few other people came on the property and there were situations--no chance of that from this point on)  

And susie: I have loaded up visitors, mother in law, mailman, friends, with treats and have them drop some while one of the two is out with me on a lead. Hopefully it helps.  This may be sacrilege on this forum but other than their breed these are not working or guard dogs.  They found me--I love both breeds but did not go looking for a BC and this particular Mal.  So yes, under these circumstance--kids, cats, dogs---they need to be extremely social.  The Mal is actually almost too low drive--not suited for Schutzhund, police work, etc.  She is happy to retrieve a few times in the pool, play tug (which I've since been told to discontinue) and will only run two or three of my five mile runs.  She loves to walk through buildings and complexes with me (I'm in real estate) so maybe sars one day--but generally other than hunting and killing squirrels she likes to just hang out with the family.  The BC is crazy for the frisbee--as high drive as it gets.  

That's the deal.  Thanks for the feedback.  Please share if anyone has any more thoughts.  

Pray, there is no "sacrilege" - whatever helps is fine, and there are a lot of "lazy" working dogs out there...
All the best!

Physical fence in back yard, no more problem.

The fence will only solve the liability, not the root issue.  

I agree to separate the two and work on the collie first.  Rebuild his nerve and safety.  The trainer should be able to help with this.

I know nothing about Mals, but it does sound like she is defending her friend.  I would think starting back at obedience 101 will get her back to where she was.  Keep the dogs separated though, because the collie is feeding the bad behavior of the Mal.  Until the collie gets their confidence back, they should not be together.

Do NOT allow anyone other then you to feed this dog, ever. Its a liability issue as well as allowing some psycho to hurt your dog one day.
What happens when a fear aggressive dog runs up to an unsuspecting stranger who comes to your house and has no treats to offer?
That stranger will extend his hand to touch the dog thinking thats what it wants, the dog will be thrown for a loop and nail that offered hand....dont allow that to happen.