Defense drive or Prey drive - Page 10

Preston - Please take this constructively -- dogs do not learn by reason . they learn through if you would agree operant conditioning and classical pavlonian conditioning ! you have psych background . yes?  their  congnitative abilities are not entirely like human ! E.g their preception of time and what time means to them ! Physiological psychology as i stated all dog have flight/fright/ fight.. Ok .. once a behavior is leanred .. they can deductive reason [ within certain parameters and limitations ].. that is to say .. they have formulated enough experiences to realize " if this ... then that. ....if i sit .. i get a cookie reward . MY POINT ----God forbid some novice read your post .. NO CANINE , especially doing protection work , SHOULD BE DOMINEERING AND TAKE CONTROL OF A SITUATION ... I do not care if it is for sport or personal protection .. any aspect to protection work defense / prey .. when the dog has achieved fundamental skills - IT MUST ALWAYS BE UNDER YOUR AUSPICES AND CONTROL /COMMAND . Preston .. I do not even allow my dogs to get in or out of my car unless they get my cue/ permission /. I think you mean well .. but canines are not people ... they are instictual ....not mostly cognitive/cerebral as such . YOU MUST ALWAYS MAKE THE DECISIONS FOR YOU DOG !

Preston- You keep using the word threat. How can a dog percieve a threat, inless they fear the harm the threat might do?

I have met a few dogs that have no fear. Having no fear they do not react to threats and were not dogs that would defend anything. Yes, one of these dogs did walk off a cliff.  You said that a dog that had never seen an agitator, percieved the threat and charged and bit. If the dog had no fear, the dog would not have seen the agitator as a threat, the dog would have just stood there and watched the person. 

The word threat implies fear of something. If a butterfly flutters by my ear, I do not percieve a threat and do not react. If a bee buzzes by my ear, I do percieve a threat and react by swatting at it.

You say that you have taken pyscology, yet pyscologists have been saying for years, that all aggression(fighting), human and animal, is fear based.  When I first heard that statement I disagreed with it, I didn't want to believe my dogs were afraid of anything. When I had the time to sit back and think about fear, that it was not just fear of physical harm, but of theft, loss of statis,etc.  I realized that it could very well be true.

You said your dogs would defend you. Why would the dogs feel the need to defend you, if they didn't fear that something was going to happen to you?

Nicely put anika bren.

Preston... I see your point now...your showdogs have no fear as they are perfect like you.  workingdogs are more of a common lower group that are scared of everything!   lol]

I see you make friends as fast as I do..lol

DR

you are wrong. the dogs with no fear have "eagles in their eyes" or "wildfirers in their eyes". they have those things in their eyes so you can tell that they are fearless. lol

Why thank you workingdawg, i think my girl had a tweety bird in her eye once!  Wait, no that tweety bird was in her mouth as she liked to catch birdies by lunging into our shrubs and grabbing it, yummy!

I'll have to check with preston (he's a genius) but i thought i read once (written by some jackass that had 40 years experience) that a tweety bird eye was very bad. not at all correct temperment.

Nope a tweety bird is no good, it must be a noble, fierce bird like an eagle or hawk. Humming birds, love birds and the like are no good. Won't even get a breed survey with that low class crap!

I do wonder about mud hens and swans? I had one dog get both in one day, about 5 minutes apart. I must ask Preston immediately!

You guys are just wrong!

I think a lot of you working line folks have created a subculture with certain defining myths. The idea that GSDs must experience fear to perceive and react appropriately a threat is one. I don't expect to change any minds here. But here's my view some new folks to the breed can hear another view and it is based on a significanty body of psychological research and animal research.  Dogs are pack animals and establish a pecking order (hierarchy) by establishing dominance.  They do this by generating and reacting to a set of species specific gestures which are symbolic in nature.  There is a dance of these presented gestures in systematically progressive and exaggerated form used to establish a higher dominance in this hierarchy, this pecking order, and this dominance becomes associated with the the animal's territory in a species specific manner (with individual idiographic differences due to specific genes and development neurologically).  Most of the time dominance and submission occurs without an all out 100% physical battle to the death in pack life (for example, among wolves, the most physically and mentally powerful wolf usually establishes dominance through his presentation of aggressive gestures which are symbolically judged by competitors for pack control to be more aggressive than they are capable of so they yield.  Some competitors exhibit a fear reaction when submitting, others just do so as a decision to "pledge allegiance" to avoid engaging in a physical battle they judge that they would lose and could be fatal (they snarl as they yield).  Not a fear reaction, but a judgement based on their processing of symbolic gestures.  My view of how this applies to GSDs is this:   GSDs tend to establish boundaries with which they associate their level of dominance to.  Typically, the house they live in, their yard, their personal space with a certain number of feet in a ring around their body, etc.  A normally tempermented GSD has the genetic basis to typically react with progressive aggression to an judged incursion.  His aggressive response is an attempt to take control of the incursion or situation by using aggression to dominate it.  The GSD must perceive an incursion or tresspassing of his territory, personal or physical, before he is motivated to express aggression to control this incursion.  Fear in any species has typical, albeit subtle indicators.  One for GSDs can be a dropping of the head and neck or tail, or a side shift back and forth of the eyes.  A courageous GSD has the capability of expressing appropriate levels of aggression to any perceived incursion withot this fear freaction.  These dogs tend to fight the hardest, the longest and are the most stable around people.  This is my opinion.  It's okay that many of the working line enthusiasts don't agree.  Also, I am not a showline enthusiast, since I don't own GSDs to show them.  I just like them as family pets.  I like well trained GSDs, and appreciate a good sch trained one, but find no need to have a GSD with such training if it is completely sound mentally and has the kind of temperament Capt. von Stephanitz demanded. I think your ideas about fear being a normal, necessary part of a good GSD's temperament are mythical. Protection reaction in a GSD is an attempt by the dog to exercise control of his perceived territory.  That's the way most are wired.  If fear is a part of the symbolic processing it detracts from the power and dominance of the dog.