Anomaly outside of widely held belief about Defense Drive - Page 14

Joanro - thats a sassy looking girl you have there. (great looking pup)

I have a Czech girl just turned 12 months mixes it big time with my stud dog - Boris. (she is a real bloody gangster)

All the best.
Gee

Thank you :-)  @ gee.

You have good taste my friend,

Five months and look at that presence/cheek, great pigmentation, but even better - here comes trouble, well done.

R
Gee.

Certain things should be done via PM and not on the board......there's a reason why PMs exist. And what happens via PM, should stay there. JMHO.

Joan: One is more suspicious (the dark one) than the other.

This is an interesting point, Joan. I personally like GSDs that have strong natural suspicion of strangers, along with strong territorial guarding......in addition to other fundamental traits that balance out the dog, of course. However, a large number of GSDs that I see lately, simply lack this extremely valuable trait of natural suspicion. They just lie around when strangers come in, and would not even bother alerting, and that in my opinion is a totally useless GSD, regardless of whatever else it does. This is probably the result of selective breeding for sport, with systematic elimination of these signature GSD traits.

I know of a breeder who was candid enough to admit that one of their dogs (heavily titled, GSD), who was the former personal dog of a national level competitor, looks scary, but was just a big, harmless fluffy bear, who would just lie around when strangers came in, and totally lacked any kind of natural suspicion or territorial guarding. Great trait for a Lab or a Golden, but terrible when it comes to a GSD, IMO !

Aka, I have known high level competition dog also, that had no territorial instinct. Selecting for the overly friendly, never meets a stranger ADULT gsd is counter to what the breed is supposed to be. Not talking about puppy behavior.
However, there is a fine line between a suspicious nature (with self confidence accompanied by strong nerves) and a shy dog. One must be certain of what character the dog in front of them displays.

Dp.

Yes, true Joan.....and hence the statement "in addition to other fundamental traits that balance out the dog".

Excellent nerves and confidence/boldness is an absolute must, when coupled with the traits of natural suspicion and territoriality.

One person commented about how old lines could work without prey.....good question for this generation. Especially when the greatest diversity and achievements by this breed was the legacy of accomplishments in various fields by the breed in the past with these type dogs.
To explain these dogs we must understand that almost all GS have some modicum of prey drive and defense drive. In times past, this drive was a better balanced drive and subject to use by the dog's nerve and discernment. Therefore, in a setting of needed use of prey, in work and herding, the dog's nerve and discernment controlled the prey drive and allowed it to be used effectively and judiciously in the function of work or herding. As opposed to today, we often see dogs that given a choice of free determination, will always run find something to carry in their mouth or relentlessly prod you into throwing it for them. This type of prevalent behavior is creation of last thirty years, you almost never saw this in times past. The key is that the traits of solid nerve and discernment controlled the " strong responses" of prey, defense, and fight properties that allowed the breed to rise to such prominence in its service to man. But as the prey or defense became so concentrated and developed, than the nerve and the discernment aspects became diminished. Thus traits like suspicion became liability without discernment to control it, or prey became incessant pandering, or defense became more flight oriented( people forget or don't realize that flight is strongest defense response ) or unbridled aggression, as the nerve and discernment wasn't controlling it. This is the reason these old dogs accomplished what they did in so many varied venues, yet were different from many of today's top dogs. And yes, there are some breeders and dogs that still possess the balance, discernment, and nerve, all in one package for this type dog, but more often today the balance of drives being under subjection to nerve and discernment is lost to the prey or defense drive driving the bus and the dog.

Good post Gustav, I want to itemize two practical examples 

In 1985 I presonally had oppurtunity to come incontact with an " old blood line " GSD ( a grandson of Marko Vom Cellerland ); he was very impressive in his temparament. As I entered their space he was very alert and kept his eyes fixed on me( no barking at all , just a very grave look ).His owner and I were friends and as I got very close to the owner ( 2 feet about ) the dog would keep passing between us and kept side brushing me with his body ( apparently ensuring that a certain space was maintained ). At the dogs home  he would become obviously more intense in his body posture if any visitor should speak loud, and he would stand up ( for emphasis of his intent )  if arms were being raised in gesticulation. He also would not allow you to leave the house on your own; you had to be let out by the owner or his wife. My friend  James told me that this dog was never trained to do any of this, and he had just become this way as he matured ( he was 4 yrs old at that time ). What impressed me about him the most was his incredible hunt, which his owner proudly demonstrated; he threw a dime piece into the thickets, and the dog immediately launched a crazy search for the dime, popping thickets brushes for a seemingly long time, until he was recalled. Soon after I bought my first GSD ( which turned out to be nothing like the one I had witnessed ).

In 2014 I was at a Schutzund club in NY  and had a personal encounter with an IPO3 dog; I think Vom Hermes breeding. As I entered their space the dog just laid there totally disinterested in me a total stanger . I asked the owner about her temparament. The owner's response was ..." what if I told you she is IPO3 ?". I was totally unimpressed by the natural demeanour of the dog, and if this was the first GSD I had seen.. I would not have owned one.