USA Sieger Show 2007 - Results... - Page 14

I will attempt to respond to Blitzen first. Since I am being questioned, to each and everyone of you I am willing to respond to, I will ask you regarding your background and success with your dogs in the show and or working ring as it can explain more to me why they respond the way they do. 1. The SV has a number of judges to choose from. The more popular ones cost more to bring to this country as they ask for more compensation so clubs begin to look and choose those that are less expensive. The problem is popular judges draw more entries and make more money for the club sponsoring the show. Most clubs, local and national ones always try to grab off the upcoming Sieger judges as they will be the ones putting up this years german dogs and will therefore logically be the ones to have the largest drawing at any show. The USA was unlucky not to be able to get any of them so they drew less than the WDA who has their show in October, 6 weeks after the German sieger show. 2. I agree with you, no judge should be allowed to put up a dog he has bred and sold. In the AKC ring this is harder to overcome since the Judge dioesnt have a dogs papers to look at and might just put up a dog he bred and sold as a puppy a year or two ago and it shows up under him in another state. However, a german judge has all the working dogs pink papers in the ring that they can look at at any time to see who bred the dog and other things such as titles. 3. This is an imperfect world. Where men and women are concerned, there will always be "politics". However, we all must play within the rules set up. I disagree with you in that you feel a breeder is the best judge of their own dogs, nothing could be further from the truth. Web sites abound with "my dogs are the best". Nothing could be further from the truth. If you dont compete, you can never be believed by any logical thinking human being that your dogs are better than Shelly's or mine if we show our dogs and you dont. Every breeder believes they breed better than someone else, but thats why we have contests to prove otherwise. That is why there is a World series, a Superbowl, a Stanley Cup and even an Olympics. To prove yourself against the worlds best.

I just love this site. At first glance, P's message seemed an honest statement at education into reality---either get on board and learn to play the game or suffer the consequences of defeat--and, do so gracefully. Kandi reiterating the dilema the owner of the "G" dog would be facing made me look deeper.(Even, I knew what a blow this was). 'P' kind of skimmed over it. It was an almost 'be gone, peasant' attitude which for some reason didn't seem well thought out for such a well thought out composition. So I looked back again, and then I saw it. The words just jumped off the page--were even in capital letters. "IF YOU WANT TO PLAY YOU HAVE TO PAY." How many are now willing to pay $3k and up to be a major contender in next yr's Seiger show? Again---I just love this site. P--you made a lot of good points. A lot of different takes on your posts. The one I took, gave me a good laugh. Thanks.

Blitzen response 2 You are bitchin about costs of showing all the way up to the "tacky team colors". Be glad your not into horses. Football and baseball teams have uniforms, why not the MittelWests and Wilhendorf's? They spend a hell of a lot more money than you and I and have a right to advertize in any way they wish. I think I saw two large trucks pull up with Mittelwests dogs. Glad I didnt have that overhead, arent you? Small breeders and purchasers cant compete in quantity with these breeders, but there is nothing to stop us from having the best quality ....unless we refuse to see the writing on the wall as they do. Purchase dogs from the winningest kennels, not the one that lose or worse, never show at all. Why breed to a losing dog, unless your just trying to sell to pet people and dont care. Quality is determined by success, failure should teach us what not to do again, otherwise there is no learning process. ---------- Oh, I agree with you regarding the match shows. Great for training puppies and even tuning up older dogs for an upcoming show. However, none of the existing clubs seem to have a means of doing it legally. Most Sch clubs I know of have between 5 and 20 members. This helps restrict the number of people doing bite work with the helper on weekends. I see more trials being held than I do "shows" throughout the USA, but golly, a Koer Klasse entry in Germany costs only $9, my last two in this country cost me $125 each! I try to have all my dogs get their titles in Germany it costs less compared to USA trainers prices. A friend of mine recently paid $4,500 for a Sch1! Another last year paid a well known trainer almost $6,000! Sorry, Comparing that to the $2,000 Euros I pay in Germany proves to be a simple mathematical equasion for me. Wherever you go, whatever you do, in any walk of life, the old adage is still true, "money talks and bullshit walks". Take note, I was able to post this without "bashing" anyone, not even the big winners. Wouldnt it be nice if everyone could do that on this message board?

paranshep you are right "IF YOU WANT TO PLAY YOU HAVE TO PAY". that should be the slogan for the sieger shows. the judges are not judging the dogs there judging money. if they were judging the dogs we wouldn't have the judges entering their dogs and asking the helpers to make sure the dogs stay on the arm. it's sad that the USA organization lets this go on.

Parenshep, thank you for attempting to explain this competition. The way you explain it, it appears that this competition is more about who you know, how much you have spent and who you associate with. The appearence of the dog is not at the top of the list of judging the german shepherd dog. We all know, see and deal with social injustice everyday. The system is clearly flawed, when you clearly judge by opinion and style, as oppossed to what is written in black and white. Where is the true spirit of competition when the VA 1 dog is owned by the person the judge stayed with during the competition. Parenshep I took your post to mean The VA spots are forsale. Thats not competition. Everyone who subscribes to this philosphy should be ashamed of themselves! Where are your morals? Have you no scruples or pride? Where and how does this type of show improve our GSD? I'm appaulled and disgusted. Kyle

Kyle, I'm with you. well said.

Isn't it funny that everything seems to come back to "they pay this" and "they pay that" and since they've paid they have the right to play. Sorry, I don't see most of these people out in the snow, the freezing weather, the rain, the 90+degree heat, beating down sun, working dogs and training their own. They aren't out at the crack ass of dawn tracking their dog(s), all the while working another job just to try and maintain their hobby. Those are the "paying of dues" i can respect. The fact that some people can pay 20K per dog and have someone else show them, pffftttt. Especially when the quality of work at these sieger shows is, well, let's just say, lacking in a lot of departments. Anybody ever read Max von Stephanitz's book??? DO you know what he said about becoming dog fanciers and showing?? and what happens when these become more important than the working abilities?? Just wondering, that may offend some, but its hard to not call it what it is.

P makes a lot of good points. It takes a lot of guts to get out there and present your pride & joy for judgment in front of a critical audience. Moreover it can be heart breaking when your dog doesn't get the place it deserves. I'd trade every "Your dog got hosed out there today's" for one high V in a Sieger show on a good looking working dog... never seem to get that far towards the front in anything higher than a Regional so far. Its too bad the two wkg dog organizations don't get along better. It would be nice if a dog aimed at Univeral sieger competition could earn it rating in either Sieger Show, , USA or N.A.and/or the BSZS. They are all prestigious, internationally recognized events presided over by SV judges at the working class level. Variety is the spice of life, they say.

maybe there should be some working requirements (other than a bought title) in order to enter the sieger show. like a passing score at a regional/national working trial. the working dogs have to do it to enter their big show why not for the sieger show.

Too many overseas deals would be lost. Seems many think -imports are better -pink papers are better -German trainers are better -German trials are better -German shows are better -German judges are better -German handlers are better of course, also, the handlers work as chaperones bringing dogs back and forth to Germany - the dog's shipping cost is cheaper that way. Why? Well, in many cases I would guess it boils down to having more expensive, exotically and mysteriously amazing puppies to sell to novice Americans. Oh, and plus, no one ever sees how the dogs REALLY work in all 3 phases. I am NOT knocking the people who enter the Sieger Show and have to do the performance test, but still, it's only a small amount of work and a tiny picture of the dog. Wish we had some statistics on how many of the entrants in an American Sieger Show (USA or NASS) actually trial in our own country - even for a SchH1....not to mention the 2 and 3. If all the "work" was done out of sight, then you have to answer alot less questions, right? But Americans breed and breed to the imports and foreign titled dogs based on pedigrees and titles and a few bites. Somehow doesn't make sense to me, but to many it does, and they make big bucks at it.