Is Electric collar necessary to train precision? - Page 15

@ the dog in the video, is that a Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever ? Sure is nice.

Reggie I agree. I would like to make a point though. There are pryncipals and there are methods using these principals. 
Principals are firmly established based on known scientific knowledge   based on research.
 Methods of training, on th eother hand,  are diferent uses of these principles and thus will be variable. many are proper and some are improper. 
Prager Hans

Johan every training must include positive and negative. Even if negative is withdrawal of positive. ( Not that such approach is very reliable in every day life. )
I have described this elsewhere on PDB here in a thread about Cesar Milan. 
Prager Hans

principals are also variables, they are not absolutes. Principals which are mainly theories on dog behavior based on observation and application.  But all observations are not absolutes because to be an absolute you would have to observe and to put into practice every variable, and once again when dealing with personalities that just isn't possible.  Take for instance the stance on disciplining children,  at one time it was seen as ok to do corporal punishment (spanking) if a child misbehaved.  then they decided that was abusive and you shouldn't spank a child at all after several years of that, they decided that, that hasn't worked to well but there had to be negative consequences for a child's actions.  So these principals on child rearing have changed again.  Are the children of today better behaved and more respectful then they were 50 years ago?  You decide.  But the point being is that Theories on behavior change all the time.  I personally have a hard time when ever anyone seems to state anything that is basically evolving theories as absolutes.  I have supervised people for many years and there isn't absolutes when how to motivate people.  Some work on praise and if you ever say something negative, its like they become crushed.  Some you could yell and scream all day at them and its like water off a duck's back. 

rtdmmcintyre. 

I am talking about scientific principles of instincts drive and psychological laws. If you can show that they are not true you will be famous. 
Like that there is a prey drive and defense drive.  Dog feel pain. Dogs have sexual drive and want to procreate. Chasing reflex. 
Dogs live in pack or in family. Dogs fear heights. Mother has a instincts to take care of pups and so on. 
Dogs responds to conditioning.  There is positive  and negative reinforcement and and on and on. Correction. .... . Dog will seek food when hungry........
There  and many many more. These are absolute. Pick a book. 
Methods are applications of these principles which varies. There is infinity of methods. 
Where you talking about principles in your above post you are actually talking about methods. 
Prager Hans

therefore by your own explanation then all the things on this thread are discussing methods of applications of these principles.  and as you said There is infinity of methods.  and that is my point.  nobody is disagreeing that there are positive and negative responses.  everybody is only disagreeing on the methods of application. 

correct. 
and some metods are better then othes. 

There are methods to train a dog, but with all the methods available to us, it is how it is interpreted by the individual, and the dog to which it is applied, that dictate whether it will work.
I personally train my dogs for competitive obedience, in the UK. With multiple distactions!!!! My dogs are trained positively, with rewards. I use corrections on my dogs, but it is not the corrections, but the LEVEL of correction. I try very hard to set my dog up not to fail, but when he does, if I say NO, he knows I am not happy with him. If something is not to my liking I will say wrong, withold a reward, and ask my dog to try harder. I do not lose my temper, and I am quite capable of laughing at their silly  antics, but they will try harder for me because we have a good relationship.
My dog is not a machine, and no 2 dogs are the same. But equally if your training is tough, then the level of correction has to be tougher.
A friend once said to me, your dog is stronger, and faster than you so the only way to win is to outwit them mentally. I have one strong, hard dog, that if he chooses to could flatten me ( I am not as young as I used to be) but he doesn't because we have a mutual respect. He would die to work, and turn himself inside out for me. This was trial and error, on my part, but I now understand how to train him to get the best from him. We have a mutual respect.
My young dog is not so hard, but can be naughty. Again, I say no, and he knows I mean it. He is fast, but is learning, but he again has been a learning curve.  He has taught me patience, in that if I get irritated with him, he can be vocal in his frustration. Not that he doesn't try for me!
My methodology has remained the same, but the methods have altered.
I use verbal, toy and food rewards, and my verbal correction, but my dogs want ot please me, so they do what I ask of them. And because they are rewarded, they try harder. This is where the timing comes in. And my dogs are not my children, they are my dogs, but I enjoy being with them, and they enjoy being with me. That is where you know your training is working.

Has anyone else notice that this has turned from "A dog can be trained for a precision IPO performance without an ecoller" into "A dog can do obedience trials without an ecollar"? People, there is a big difference between the two. Why is everyone having such a hard time finding a percision IPO dog trained without a ecollar?

Christopher, if we look at the obedience part in IPO, I´ve heard IPO-people say you must use some form av correction also there, why is that if obedience people can do the same without any physcial corrections, it´s not like the obedience in IPO is more advanced either what I can see. If you are thinking of IPO as  a whole I gave you an example of a handler in US that train without e-collars, that people can´t train without it is maybe because they always used one, it´s handy, they are not so skilled in learning with reward based training and breaking down the exercises in small parts etc. I guess it´s also a personal thing how you see at dog training, a fun hobby or points to all costs, let´s say you loose 1-2 points if not using an e-collar I guess many don´t care, just like they can find joy in a sport even if not using forbidden drugs.

Here is a handler who according to himself and others train without prongs and e-collars, world champion in IPO for rottweilers among his merits,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1Eq-2rrlHI