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by Hundmutter on 12 January 2014 - 17:01
Hmmm, 'German breedings' in the States - no it wasn't clear from what Jenni
said that she was not discussing all Americans who breed, in speaking about the
attitude of some breeders to culling. Do you think there is some point where
ASL people (whose dogs do originate from German dogs, after all, if you go
back far enough !) are more likely to be sentimental ? They seem (from outside)
to be even more fixated on getting dogs to their Standard ...
But let's stick to imported German dogs, then, or one or two generations off those,
bred in America. [If the dog was bred IN GERMANY, the question of American
sensibilities doesn't apply*.] If to the First Generation of US/German pups, then
surely Joan's comment still applies to just those ? Anyone taken a poll ?
* As has been pointed out subsequently, this generation of German humans seems to
take a less drastic view than their forebears; but even so, once the dog has been sold
overseas, it is clearly in the land of the still living, whether 'perfect' or not !
Jen : PM replied to, but I read yours and answered it before coming back to see what
had developed in this thred, so not sure I'll have answered you enough ?
said that she was not discussing all Americans who breed, in speaking about the
attitude of some breeders to culling. Do you think there is some point where
ASL people (whose dogs do originate from German dogs, after all, if you go
back far enough !) are more likely to be sentimental ? They seem (from outside)
to be even more fixated on getting dogs to their Standard ...
But let's stick to imported German dogs, then, or one or two generations off those,
bred in America. [If the dog was bred IN GERMANY, the question of American
sensibilities doesn't apply*.] If to the First Generation of US/German pups, then
surely Joan's comment still applies to just those ? Anyone taken a poll ?
* As has been pointed out subsequently, this generation of German humans seems to
take a less drastic view than their forebears; but even so, once the dog has been sold
overseas, it is clearly in the land of the still living, whether 'perfect' or not !
Jen : PM replied to, but I read yours and answered it before coming back to see what
had developed in this thred, so not sure I'll have answered you enough ?
by Hundmutter on 12 January 2014 - 18:01
Susie's list of dogs is very interesting, it was clearly typed from
an American perspective, as there are a mixture of German dogs
including many permanently imported to the States plus some that
visited for stud duties and then went elsewhere, and American-bred
dogs. A UK or other Europe-wide list would contain some other
names. There is a limited amount of cross-over in UK-bred dogs,
on lines from the Germans on the list, to America; but not a huge
number. I think the results have been the same, however.
This one is a very long list. Some dogs and their descendants have
obviously been used much more than others over the years; but e.g.
how many pups did Lance of Fran-Jo sire ?
Often the more carriers are known, the wider the genes have been spread
around before they are identified.
The more those lines are concentrated back together by in-breeding on
them, the greater probabilities of risks for various ailments.
I don't think anyone who breeds to Standard, however careful they are,
can ever say that they absolutely do not run any increased risks of
getting anything wrong, when the inbreeding coefficient is not fully known
(and it can't be if there are any gaps in the pedigree, however far back).
Generations of carefully bred dogs, with all the peer pressure to keep to
the Standard or to some other set of parameters for working kennels,
to use health testing and OFA, not to linebreed too closely etc obviously
helps breeders to control as much as possible what problems / oddities
they still get. But most people have a dog somewhere in their set-up that
has a less than sterling pedigree; and that is where something MAY (not
MUST) creep in. Look how many normal dogs have an overbite; or the
cases of CDRM and HD that still crop up in families of dogs thought to be
clear of them.
Genetics and breeding, as has been said many times before, is still not an
EXACT Science. Just because there was some culling and some blue dogs
were not raised, to be bred from, does not mean that some blue carrier dogs
have not crept into the programmes of serious fanciers, and because blue
dogs that lived and reproduced, many of them with 'less than careful' breeders
shall we say, are in the general gene pool, it is I submit impossible by now
to ensure that these are all kept outside the 'serious' gene pool. Lines from
affected dogs may not have started with skin ailments and so on, but they
may well have acquired them - and doubled up on them - along the way.
an American perspective, as there are a mixture of German dogs
including many permanently imported to the States plus some that
visited for stud duties and then went elsewhere, and American-bred
dogs. A UK or other Europe-wide list would contain some other
names. There is a limited amount of cross-over in UK-bred dogs,
on lines from the Germans on the list, to America; but not a huge
number. I think the results have been the same, however.
This one is a very long list. Some dogs and their descendants have
obviously been used much more than others over the years; but e.g.
how many pups did Lance of Fran-Jo sire ?
Often the more carriers are known, the wider the genes have been spread
around before they are identified.
The more those lines are concentrated back together by in-breeding on
them, the greater probabilities of risks for various ailments.
I don't think anyone who breeds to Standard, however careful they are,
can ever say that they absolutely do not run any increased risks of
getting anything wrong, when the inbreeding coefficient is not fully known
(and it can't be if there are any gaps in the pedigree, however far back).
Generations of carefully bred dogs, with all the peer pressure to keep to
the Standard or to some other set of parameters for working kennels,
to use health testing and OFA, not to linebreed too closely etc obviously
helps breeders to control as much as possible what problems / oddities
they still get. But most people have a dog somewhere in their set-up that
has a less than sterling pedigree; and that is where something MAY (not
MUST) creep in. Look how many normal dogs have an overbite; or the
cases of CDRM and HD that still crop up in families of dogs thought to be
clear of them.
Genetics and breeding, as has been said many times before, is still not an
EXACT Science. Just because there was some culling and some blue dogs
were not raised, to be bred from, does not mean that some blue carrier dogs
have not crept into the programmes of serious fanciers, and because blue
dogs that lived and reproduced, many of them with 'less than careful' breeders
shall we say, are in the general gene pool, it is I submit impossible by now
to ensure that these are all kept outside the 'serious' gene pool. Lines from
affected dogs may not have started with skin ailments and so on, but they
may well have acquired them - and doubled up on them - along the way.
by CMills on 12 January 2014 - 18:01
Well maybe I've been living/breeding under a rock, but in my 30 yrs of breeding GSDs, I've not known of any "bucket pups" in my region, the Midwest. Thank God, it wasn't the innocent pups' faults!
by Jenni78 on 12 January 2014 - 20:01
Hundmutter, I didn't ask anything; I just wanted to show you that excerpt and didn't think I was allowed to "crosspost." That was the only example of a "from the horse's mouth" about culling in recent times.
by GinaBel on 13 January 2014 - 01:01
CDA is not something present at birth. This puppy has a congenital midline defect... Same thing as having a cleft palate. Hopefully that is the full extent of the defect...all cosmetic. He is still a cutey! What eyes.
by NA7 on 13 January 2014 - 01:01
What about SAR? Searching for people or victims, etc, a part down the middle is not going to matter at all! I see no reason why this guy won't be able to have a good life with an active family or person. He is 1/2 working line and 1/2 sl that can work, right? Have you tested him to see his abilities/ strengths yet?
by vk4gsd on 13 January 2014 - 01:01
perfect for SAR, the line down the middle could be used like a gun sight for directionals.
by Jenni78 on 13 January 2014 - 01:01
Trust me when I say he's not a good pet for "normal" people but someone with a slightly sick sense of humor might really enjoy doing some kind of bitework with him. He's pretty drivey, which is, of course, not a problem. The "problem" in putting him in a pet home is his mouth. Not sure I've had too many pups with a more committed bite- he strikes like a snake and doesn't let go. He's more like a Pit Bull puppy than a GSD puppy. My Pit was like that at the same age- struck out of nowhere and hard- but totally outgrew it. But as it stands now, someone is going to need to do some serious "redirecting" when they get him home. Small children are a no-go. He's made me bleed, and this is not my first rodeo!
He has an attitude- nothing gets him down, no obstacle is anything but a minor annoyance, he'll go through/over/under anything...he's got this swagger that makes me laugh, but he's not the sweetest puppy................LOL. My son avoids him unless I force him to hold him for pics or something, my bf thinks I should just keep him because anyone who takes him will just bring him back anyway, and "regular" puppy buyers think he's "mean."
And I guess he is, a little. Could be why I like him! HA! 
He's staying another month or so, at least, until I can get a better handle on him and figure out if he's just ugly, or ugly and mean. 
May be just a stage and he'll be a doll at 12 weeks. But I'm not holding my breath!
He has an attitude- nothing gets him down, no obstacle is anything but a minor annoyance, he'll go through/over/under anything...he's got this swagger that makes me laugh, but he's not the sweetest puppy................LOL. My son avoids him unless I force him to hold him for pics or something, my bf thinks I should just keep him because anyone who takes him will just bring him back anyway, and "regular" puppy buyers think he's "mean."
And I guess he is, a little. Could be why I like him! HA! He's staying another month or so, at least, until I can get a better handle on him and figure out if he's just ugly, or ugly and mean. May be just a stage and he'll be a doll at 12 weeks. But I'm not holding my breath! 
by EduCanine on 14 January 2014 - 01:01
Just catching up on the forum. I'm also confused, Jenni. Re: your post saying you were confused. LOL oh well. In any event, he sounds like a blast of a puppy.
Question, off topic. Are you planning anymore outcross litters such as this one again? I'm asking purely out of curiosity, not any kind of pointedness, or snark here. I'm interested in breeders going "against the grain".
Question, off topic. Are you planning anymore outcross litters such as this one again? I'm asking purely out of curiosity, not any kind of pointedness, or snark here. I'm interested in breeders going "against the grain".
by Jenni78 on 14 January 2014 - 05:01
I don't understand what you think is weird about him besides the line. Not sure why that's confusing. Lots of puppies have crappy, tight, mole-ish coats at early ages. They typically improve (I say typically because I've never had one of my own or dogs I've bred that didn't). His coat, along w/the black and tan male and his other blue brother, was just thin around his ears and tail. The others had very fluffy coats that they must've gotten from their father. It's not the type coat I'm familiar with. Actually, a lot of Capri pups when tiny have thinner, sleeker coats and they're the ones who end up w/a coat type like hers, which is anything but sparse, lol. Now that they're getting more and more coat, the thinner areas are getting more noticeable, though more hair is growing in there, as well.
I wasn't planning any more breedings, really. This one just sort of fell in my lap w/Aria's situation, being available suddenly- kind of one of those "now or never" things. I did this to give me another generation removed to breed back into what I already have, ie, kind of a different "1/4" to put into my future pups, to avoid too much of the same old, same old blood, esp. if I end up linebreeding, though there are no plans of any breedings at this time. Likely, I'll be doing a bit of linebreeding on Capri in the future, unless something crops up that tells me I shouldn't. As of now, I don't see why not, but then with linebreeding, you often don't know until you do it, the "why not." LOL. As her oldest pups will be 5 early this summer and her youngest are going to be 2, I'll see what the next year or two brings as far as health in the pups and go from there.
Snarky or pointed or not, I'll answer. Doesn't bother me.
I wasn't planning any more breedings, really. This one just sort of fell in my lap w/Aria's situation, being available suddenly- kind of one of those "now or never" things. I did this to give me another generation removed to breed back into what I already have, ie, kind of a different "1/4" to put into my future pups, to avoid too much of the same old, same old blood, esp. if I end up linebreeding, though there are no plans of any breedings at this time. Likely, I'll be doing a bit of linebreeding on Capri in the future, unless something crops up that tells me I shouldn't. As of now, I don't see why not, but then with linebreeding, you often don't know until you do it, the "why not." LOL. As her oldest pups will be 5 early this summer and her youngest are going to be 2, I'll see what the next year or two brings as far as health in the pups and go from there.
Snarky or pointed or not, I'll answer. Doesn't bother me.
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