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by Rik on 26 October 2010 - 01:10
If you want to kick my ass in conformation, then I invite you to do so. I travel around to many parts of the U.S. exhibiting my ideal of conformation, so I am sure at some point in the future I will be convent to you.
And please, don't educate me on horses. I have a little experience there also. You want to bet on them, look for the best shoulder construction and reach when they are coming out. You want a cow pony, look for short back for quickness and short term speed.
Anything else you wish to educate me on structure, other than I should be in Mal's (because you are the only authority in GSD and horses)
Best,
Rick Atchley
p.s. I have not had 10 beers, I have had six. And I am still able to recognize that you have absolutely no knowledge of structure as relates to any recognized interpretation of such. So, if you wish to turn this in a pizzing contest, give me a few minutes to have ten and we can start comparing accomplishments recognized by any world organizations you wish to choose, and not in your little world of yard dogs.
ps, ps. You offer for knowledege on the GSD a horse. I suggest you have the ten beers and associate yourself and your views with the other authority on GSD who has a "VG" cow to offer as expert analysis on the GSD
Best again,
Windy Rik
by StephanieJ on 26 October 2010 - 02:10
Thought you might find this of interest:
http://editinternational.com/read.php?id=47a882fcb2a23
Correlations, anyone?
by Steve Schuler on 26 October 2010 - 03:10
Thanks for the link to a very interesting article!
In part due to my renewed interest in selective breeding of dogs, specifically GSD's, as a means to improve both physical and mental attributes by careful selection of mating partners within the breed, I have also given a little thought to the notion of selective breeding within the human population as a means to improve on the human race. While I was already vaguely aware of the Lebensborn program, I found this a very interesting article and testimony to an inherrently flawed and ultimately failed experiment in the realm of selective breeding in a state controlled program.
Is failure the ultimate fate of all "Purebred" breeding programs?
Who knows? I suppose time will tell.
SteveO
by Rik on 26 October 2010 - 03:10
A "VG cow" was what was offered by another poster as experience in evacuating and and offering expert opinions on GSD structure. Very similar to those who wish to instruct to the world on GAD from experience with a horse.
Hope this helps and explains.
Rik
by Jeff Oehlsen on 03 November 2010 - 04:11
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_olcUF5Tl8&feature=related
Thinking about conformation is a waste of time. It is also detracting from what a dog is supposed to be. The dogs character and drives must come first.
by Jeff Oehlsen on 03 November 2010 - 04:11
Pretty dog that actually can work.
I have seen many crap dogs in law enforcement, and have seen what people think is a good working dog, and God knows what the hell they are looking at.
I have seen some of the dogs whose pictures are posted here work, some, not all, and the work was crap. Molly's eagle was an overweight sleeve sucker at best. I did not like the dogs work at all. There is something else to consider when talking "excellent" working dogs that are pretty, and that is how good people have gotten at training the Sch routine.
There are many videos out there that show dogs that "appear" to be good working dogs, but the reality is that they are just exceptionally well trained.
by darylehret on 03 November 2010 - 12:11
Thinking about conformation is a waste of time.So is attempting to convince the conformation aficionados of this point.
by eichenluft on 03 November 2010 - 12:11
FYI V-Eagle v Eichenluft was an excellent dog in every way. NEVER fat, at 95 lbs with ribs easily seen, he was a very big muscular dog at the top of the standard (much like you right Jeff?)
Bred, trained and raised by me so never professionally trained or handled, he achieved his Schh3 title 25X, many with V tracking and protection scores, under many many different judges from all organizations (SV, USA, FCI). He stood on the podium more than once and was a member of the 2004 FCI World Team. He was also FH Champion. MOST of his titles were achieved at Regional and National level, not club level (I know you have struggled to get passing scores at club level Jeff).
And, along the way Eagle proved himself in other ways - he was a trained HR detection dog, and he also completed a police Patrol school right alongside Police K9 dogs and handlers. He even herded sheep, had his TDI certification and dabbled in Rally and AKC obedience. He was also my housedog, best buddy and constant companion dog. A dog anyone would have been proud to own - including you, Jeff. Too bd you never got to know him or work him, you would have liked him - a lot.
molly
http://workinggermanshepherd.com
by Jeff Oehlsen on 03 November 2010 - 13:11
Trained as a HR dog ? How long did that take ? That is so impressive ! ! ! ! I am sure it dazzles those that have no idea of it's simplicity. Of course he did a patrol dog school, as the police depts are always allowing civilians to train with them.
I had a rescue dog that herded sheep, I was told he was very very good at it. I sucked at it, but he looked good at it.
I have been around an awful lot of dogs in my lifetime. I would have sold that dog right away. Too boring, Way too boring.
Anytime you want to come out and train with my dog you are welcome to. His scores are abysmal for sure, but he will blow anything you own out of the water. He is not compliant at all, and I beat him many times to get him just to not see people as something to knock down and play with.
I noticed that you did not talk about the GSD I put up there with the ring title at 22 months of age. Better to spout off on the feeble accomplishments of the sleeve sucker again.
by charlie319 on 03 November 2010 - 14:11
I find it interesting that when "conformation" is mentioned, what is talked about is the current predilections of Showline judges. Conformation is the physical aspect of the breed standard. I agree with Jeff that there are a lot of good scoring dogs out there that are either well trained or briliantly handled who would not stand a chance against an experienced alley tom-cat
, let alone a determined adversary in real world situation. However, it matters little how good a dog is on the trials or the show-ring if it is unable to pass on enough good traits to his offspring. We have dogs like Mink vom haus Wittfeld whose trial performance did not predict his impact on WL's who are better dogs for the breed than their trial record would indicate.
That being said, I see no argument of merit to justify why a competitive WL dog is not supposed to have a physical conformation that would allow it to compete among SL's. Even if you breed primarily for temperament and (appropriate) drives, if you breed dogs of a certain quality, their physical characteristics will also pass. Unless you are selectively breeding for traits and attributes that are outside, or stretch the envelope, of the breed standard, there is no reason for a well bred WL's dog to not be aesthetically pleasing. Part of the problem lies in that WL breeders place too much emphasis on highly developed, dynamic, extreme drives, and ignore many of the basic requirements of a well-structured GSD. Granted, most WL's breeders have no interest at all in the show ring, but their main objective is to breed animals that will excel in working trials. On the other hand, SL breeders have willfully neglected those temperament traits and drives that can be an obstacle in training a compliant show dog.
I'm a big fan of the "Universal Sieger" title as a means to improving both "lines" of the breed. I would like to see more dogs that are complete enough that they can compete in SL's and WL trials. I can live with leaving the winning of the big competitions to "single purpose dogs". IMPO, the objective of any quality driven breeder should be to breed a GSD that has the intelligent, responsive temperament necessary to do well in Working trials, and also the excellent construction to be well placed in Breed show ring. “Benny v. Haus Pe-Ja” and "Tiras Vom Rotenfeld""are examples of good GSD's that can do well in show and trial competitions.
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