Roached/Banana backs - Page 2

i agree with abhay that a roach back is when the back is higher than the withers and it is not something you see much of now unless handler stacks the dog that way but if you see the dog in natural stance it will not be roached

jim h

JECK18,good post,ABHAYand JAYMESIE51 you are both 100% correct IMO.the title "roach back" is thrown about to easily by those that truly do not know what they are talking about¬!!!!!  liz

OK, so if as some posters have claimed the roach came in imperceptibly when trying to correct dips in the topline and/or achieve the 45 degree angulation to the croup (I am in no way disputing this), why was the roaching not corrected by breeders when it finally was noticed given the extremes we are seeing today? Did a curved topline just become desirable in WG show dogs?

My querry went unanswered...

 Roached backs from straight back  predecessors???It seems to be artificial and man made.But how?? 

 How do they made this banana back in GSDs?

And what was the purpose of it?How it helps the GSD to perform better?Or was it just for the looks..

Roached Back and Banana Backs are two different things.

Roached back is similar to the german Karpfenrücken (carp back). The Problem here is, as said correct before, the back in the middlehand is higher than the wither.

The GSD weight is balanced 65% on frontleg and 35% in the backhand. In opposite is the power in the backhand 75% to 25% in the front. To use alle 4 legs on the same level you need a strong firm back to direct the power from the backhand to the wither. Because of the gravitiy and the 65% weight of the forehand the direction can't go only forward, it must go up and forward. Here is the 23° degree of the croup the best angle, but you have to measure from the straight topline, not when the dog is stacked.

Banana Backs is only the description of a correct back when stacked or move.

The Back spread the power from the backhand and the weight of the front to the whole spine, like a fishing rod. That's also the reason stretched dogs can better move, they can spread all problems better to a long back.

If you havn't a topline like that it will cause a higher risk of disc prolaps, a big problem with the working lines with "straight" backs. 

A roach/banana back is never correct for a GSD or most any other breed for that matter. I've owned dogs for olmost 40 years, never had one with a banana back, never had a dog with a prolapsed disc either. That condition is not caused by a straight topline, it is caused by a back that is too long and weak and legs that are too short  to correctly support the body length and weight of the dog- ie Corgis, Bassetts, Dachshunds et al.

The SV standard says:

"The over-line proceeds from the neck, continuing over the high, long withers and over the straight back through the slightly sloping croup without abrupt change". Question - where does it say a roach is correct or even acceptable. Answer - it doesn't.

"The German Shepherd is a trotter. The limbs must be so harmonious with each other in length and angulation, that without creating much undulation of the top line, the hindquarters can push the torso forward in such a manner that the stride matches that of the forequarters". Question - where does it say a GSD should move with an arched back? Answer - it doesn't.

It seems very clear to me that  a roachy topline is not correct for a GSD. It is acceptabale in some coarsing breeds, the GSD is not a coarsing hound. The roach in those special breeds is to be slight and beginning over the croup, not in the middle of the back.  A coarsing dog must be able to quickly place its rear legs under its body in order to make quick turns when running down prey. The GSD is not intended to coarse prey, so a roach anywhere in the plain of the backline is incorrect.  BTW coarsing hounds like the greyhound and whippet are not supposed to have the exagerated roach seen in some AKC show dogs. The arch is be be sllight.

Roach back,where the back is higher than the wither,is not called for in the standard,CORRECT.There is also no mention of SQUARE BACKS with little croup.Is this also frowned upon by you so called experts,i see on this data base lots of working line dogs that have the look of a table with NO hind angulation.This does not apply to all working lines i have seen many that are absolutely correct and i would be proud to take into a show ring.but i am very open minded unlike some here.Roach back is a name given unfairly to many dogs with very correct overlines by the less informed,in this breed. liz

Very well said Blitzen..Nowhere in the standard it is mention  that a roach back is correct. It is a Fault.

Square dogs are a fault also.  The standard says:

Smooth curves rather than angle...it speaks for itself..

Thank you july9000 for clarifying that,CURVES RATHER THAN ANGLES, certainly does speak for itself!!! liz

Not sure I"ve ever seen a square GSD.

"The German Shepherd is  medium sized, slightly stretched, strong and well muscled.......the length of the torso exceeds the measurement of the withers by about 10 - 17%.......depth of chest  should be about 45 to 48% of the dog's height at the withers.........with correct structural proportions and angulation, a far-reaching, ground covering, level gait results, which conveys the impression of effortless forward movement. With the head thrust forward and tail slightyl lifted it presents in a fairly level, balanced and smooth trot,one uninterprupted, gently flowing over-line from the tips of the ears over the nape and back, through to the end of the tail."

It's all there in black and white with little left to interpretation. A dog that is longer that tall with a straight topline and a fairly level, balance and smooth trot. No mention of raoches, square dogs or dogs that arch their backs when moving.

Have a look -  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIFpKL0qRQ0