What kind of puppy? - Page 2

I am invloved in schutzhnd today because of Onex Vom Younghaus. Onex and Phantom are owned by a friend of mine. I purchased Phoenix because of Onex and me and my friend Chris recieved Phantom and Phoenix together. Onex is a very high driven female that learns very fast and has a wonderul temperment. She is like lightning on red bull and can go all day which is a trate that I feel many GSD are losing these days. She also has a very nice bite and is a very nice focused tracker. She wants to make you happy in obedience and is easy to handle. I have seen this girl up close and personel from the age of 8 weeks all the way to her BH and she was a star from the get go. So far the only other dogs I have seen like this are my Male and a malinios named Brutus. Granted i have not seen every dog in the world but i have seen a few as a decoy and i still search for dogs with these two dogs trainability and drive and just natural ability. That is what I want from a breeding from these two. I just want to learn more about the kind of dog Quasy produced because Askia is what I love about this breeding and i would want a female from this breedng. It will be a good while before this ever happens becaue I want to be responsible and knowledgeable about this and not just another pedigree breeder.

I cant thank you all enough for this info.

Do you feel askia is to far back in quasy to effect this possible litter?

Now that's a bomb I'm going to lob over to Shelley. Once again she knows the dogs. Shelley here is the link to the bitch Onex he is talking about. http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/537548.html   and her 6 generation pedigree http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/6/537548.html .

Smart guy I will just say this. Most dog people fall into one of two camps. 1. Only the first 3 generations count and no need to look further than that or 2. It all counts. Look back as far as you can and get as much info as you can. Especially true if the back end is concentrated on very few dogs ( ex. Lance of Fran Jo in the American lines. That what is massed there can affect current generations.)  Most of us come to one or the other because of personal experience. So if you had tooth faults or an odd color crawl out of the back beyond - 'cause you've known the current 4 or 5 generations you might be more inclined to the 2nd philosophy.

I personally think both are true. Up front tells you the likelyhood of specific prominent traits and characteristics being produced. But I also think the "back 40" counts, it's like painting with a broad brush of type and style depending on how strong the "brew" was created. For example I think that dogs like Ziggo Bungalow and Lasso Di val sole threw specific body types that can still be seen today.  My personal belief is that certain working traits can also be painted with such a broad brush. There are certain lines I can almost certainly predict their herding ability or lack thereof just based  on what's in their back 40 ( and no I'm not talking Kirschental lines). Does that help you predict what you  will with certainty get in an individual litter as opposed to knowing that one parent or grand parent is sable or long coat or missing teeth or a hard dog. Probably not but it does increase the likelyhood of certain traits persisting. Not meaning to harp but once again this is only true if those traits were selected for and preserved in the intervening generations, though herding ability does seem to have a very strong persistence. Just look at many of the American dogs who are great herders and come from pedigrees that haven't seen a working dog in  8-12 generations.

Finally re your other thread on  2-2 line breeding. Yes it has been very common on both sides of the ocean. It is a very strong breeding for fixing type if you know what you are doing and intimately know the individuals. But with it comes a responsiblity to cull what does not meet the standard you were reaching for. It is not for the faint of heart since it can go either way fixing good or bad traits.

I found that line breeding in Quasys's  "back 40"

I have had several requests to add something of value to this discussion, and I do plan to try, but I have been researching so-o-o many pedigrees, potential breedings, etc. for people (privately) lately my pea-sized brain is turning to mush. LOL It ain't gonna be tonight. Maybe tomorrow morning.

SS

OK. My head is still spinning from all the predigree research I have done lately, for myself and for others. I have slips of paper with notes all over my desk and I am sure I am going blind this morning, but here's the short version for this thread:

Both Talon and Pharoah are line-bred on Timmy/Troll in the 4th and 5th generation. THEORHETICALLY (sp?) linebreeding in generation 6 is off the chart, but in this case, breeding these two dogs together would almost be like trying to raise the T litter von der Bosen Nachbarschaft from the dead IMO. That's way too much of those two dogs for me thanks, even that far back.

In one of your theorhetical breedings, you have a 3,2 line-breeding on Prady v.d. Lobach. Granted, he seems to be a decent dog himself, but he has to be 7-9 yrs. old by now if he was in the LGA in 2002 (no DOB listed on PdB) and he has no titled progeny listed, none of his 7 siblings titled. Granted: he was obviously imported to the US sometime in 2003 (entered in the USA Nationals in '03 with Tom Trainer) so he probably either didn't get very much opportunity to produce or what he did produce is not readily researchable. (Is that a WORD?)   Prandy's mother Trixi, produced 38 puppies, from 7 fathers, including such notables as Nick and Yoschy, of which only a handful were hip-rated, (a couple 2-3 rated a3) and only two were titled  and breed surveyed, (Unka and Mungo) although one was a pretty nice female:V Unka von der Lobach. The other, Mungo produced 14 pups from 2 mothers, the youngest 5.5 yrs. old, only one titled. So WHY would you want to line-breed on this dog so close as 3,2?

I didn't like Xato so I wouldn't linebreed on him, but that just my own taste. He has produced pretty well whether I liked him in person or not.

Not to over-state the obvious, but neither of your young dogs, nice as they may be themselves, has a lot of titled family in the last 2 generations. That may well be because Young haus is in Hawaii, where opportunities for finding working homes and titling dogs are minimal (pretty long commute to the mainland, + quaranteen restrictions) even though Young Haus has pretty good taste in dogs overall. Sucks to live in paradise. LOL

SO- My advice- Have a ball titling your nice youngsters. I see no real point in breeding them if your goal is to produce dogs for SchH enthusiasts, especially if you, too, live in Hawaii. Much cheaper/easier and a better bet for success to buy your future prospects.

I could dig deeper into the prospectus pedigrees mentioned, but I've already spent a couple of hours on this and could eality spend a few more, (n addition to the research I am doing for myself and a couple of other people interested in breeding to my T) but then I KNOW I would be blind.

Hope I haven't insulted anybody. After all, you DID ask. ;-D

SS

-PS: Bear in mind that a lot of dogs and their titles are not listed on any dB, but thank God for this one. Without it GSD pedigree research would be difficult/impossible. Thanks OLLI!

SHELLY

If i could just have a quarter of your brain i would be grateful. Thank you for helpingme and so many others. I competely agree with your statement

"Not to over-state the obvious, but neither of your young dogs, nice as they may be themselves, has a lot of titled family in the last 2 generations. That may well be because Young haus is in Hawaii, where opportunities for finding working homes and titling dogs are minimal (pretty long commute to the mainland, + quaranteen restrictions) even though Young Haus has pretty good taste in dogs overall. Sucks to live in paradise. LOL"

Lucky for me I dont live there anymore and I am in Virginia were growth and experience are endless when it comes to german shepherds.  Thanks again