feeding BRAND new puppy - Page 3

Shasta: fantastic news -- the pup is eating better!  Good luck.

GREAT STUFF Michael! I KNEW I could count on you to wade through tedious research and distill the plain facts in terms even I can digest. (OOoooo, BAD pun!)

So, what I'm feeding is okay I guess, but I think I'll throw in some fresh chicken or other lean meat a few times a week. One pups is a little fat, (the male) one (female) just right at this point. Seprating the two earlier this week probably will even them out, as the male is a little speed demon when it comes to chowing down the food. Both have nice bloomy coats, good muscle tone, plenty of energy for activity, robust appetites. I do want to trim the male a little more for the show next weekend, don't want him penalized for being sloppy in the gaiting, but with a mind for stamina in case we have to gait more than uusual of its unseasonably warm by chance.

I too was a professional athlete. Unfortunately my chosen profession called for meeting specific weight criteria while still demanding a huge amount of energy and stamina. I was a horoughbred tjockey, one of the first women licensed in CA.  Marathon runners typically need a lot more caloric intake, that sport being one of the few that demand more energy and fitness than riding races. The racetrack offers a very specific motivator for making weight: They post over-weights on the tote board for all to see and announce them on the P.A. before each race. Owners and trainers take a dim view of riders not making weight, 6 lbs. over and your automatically taken off. Its easy to eat your way out of a job! Women are fortunate in that we hae a layer of fat beneath our skin that we can easily draw on in a hurry to pull off an extra pound or two when we are stuck on a cheap nag that gets in with 102 lbs. Too bad it takes twice as much energy to get those pigs to the wire anyplace better than last. Ha ha ha. Gary Stevens NEVER had to ride pigs once he left his father's barn in Boise. We girls got a lot of them, and most of the renegades too. I wonder how many orthopedic surgeons' kids I put through school trying to prove I could ride anything they could strap the tack on in the early days? :-O

My best form came with a diet that included a lot of protein (mostly fish, shellfish, lean beef, some skinless chicken or other poultry) a lot of fresh-steamed vegies and raw leafy greens, little starch and very little added fats, NO added sugars except on Saturday night when I cheated, ate ice cream, baked potatoes with butter and sour cream, or pasta with cheese sauce, all of of which I paid dearly for the next day... The track was "dark" on Sundays and Mondays, thank God, so I had time to dump the 3-4 lbs (mostly water no doubt) in time for weigh-in on Tuesday afternoon! I did 105 with my tack as a bug-girl, but felt better/stronger when I lost my "bug" (5 pound weight apprentice advantage) and could get by doing 108-112, rarely having to carry dead-lead in the saddle pad well aft of the horses' center of gravity. 30 yrs. later I'd be hard-pressed to tack 125 for 440 yds on a 1200 lb. quarter horse. Try to send me 7 furlongs and I'd probably collapse and fall off at the 1.2 mile pole, my irons dangling down around my mount's elbows. Ha ha ha.

Thanks again, Michael. I look forward to more posts from you here. Now I'm out to train off and on for most of the afternoon.

SS

MVF, what do you think of the FAT needs and requirements in growing puppies? I know protein has always been the buzz word, but I've had many vets and people tell me it is the fat content that needs to be watched...

I know of a couple foods (one good one bad) that have slashed the fat content in large breed puppy food. (we're talking 10%-ish) So how much FAT does a puppy need in their diet?

SchHGSD: You have raised something exceedingly important that I am embarassed to have neglected: the right amount of fat in a dog's or puppy's diet.

Dry commercial dog foods face difficult storage problems with respect to lipids (fats) so they err on the side of making their food too low in fat.  Good dry dog foods are often only 10% or so in fat, and this is too little for virtually all dogs.

The so-called evolutionary environment diet (what wolves eat, so therefore what we think ancient dogs ate) was free range prey which are 10-20% fat (compared to 30% fat beef cattle).

Humans regularly eat 30% fat -- yet we are better than dogs at digesting carbs.

Dogs could probably do very well on 30% fat diets, and almost all would profit from at least a little more fat in their diets. Strangely, I cannot find any studies experimenting with higher fat diets.  The only study I recall is the working sled dog studies that showed 50% protein and 40% fat was needed for very hard working and high calorie burning dogs.  This would translate into 25% protein and 20% fat for most dogs which is sensible but not proven. And higher fat than most or all commercial dog foods -- can anyone find one this high?

So almost all dog foods could be supplemented healthfully with some fat, but care should be taken to replace carbs with fats, and not protein with fats.  One way would be to go to an extremely high protein, low carb foot like Evo Innova, and then cut it with fat.  Say two cups of Evo to 1/2 cup of lipid sources such as fat rendered from meat, poultry skin, oil.  In the end you'd have less protein than Evo and much more fat.

If a dog is a so-called hard gainer, this may be what is needed.  If a pup is fat, and yet has good skin and coat, I suppose I'd steer clear of added fat.

If I can find any more studies, I will report them.

I did find an interesting study on Ca:P.  While the ratio is important, the levels have not proven important in adult dogs.  You can increase the levels of Ca and P by afactor of four short term with no ill effects.  The reason is the both can be urinated when excessive, especially P. This is probably risky, however, for fast growing puppies. 

I knew we might get Shelley to regale us in jockey lore.   I didn't want to "out" her as a crazy jockey (and that coming from an ex decathlete and rugger). The special weight restrictions in Shelley's world make that a special and very demanding case study.  Fortunately, dogs never need to make such a severe weight limit.

I knew we might get Shelley to regale us in jockey lore.   I didn't want to "out" her as a crazy jockey (and that coming from an ex decathlete and rugger). The special weight restrictions in Shelley's world make that a special and very demanding case study.  Fortunately, dogs never need to make such a severe weight limit.

I'm all for rotation diets, as long as the contents/levels/ratios are appropriate and we take the time to change gradually. The flora in our domesticated dog's digestive tracts adjusts to dietary changes gradually, but occasional rotation seems a good idea too avoid longterm damage should one formula be lacking something or be somehow otherwise unbalanced. I'm sure that has been part of the problems we see sometimes when dogs who were doing just fine start to decline in some way or another, or experience reduced appetites. Try to feed me the same thing month after month... Not gonna happen. I am finding that as long as the "new" food is high quality and not too, TOO unlike the last, digestive upsets are minimal and the dogs adjust easily within a few days, switching formulas at  a 25% per day rate or less. 

SS