Sport Title v.s. Breed Worthyness title. in Sch. - Page 3

Louise:  If more people thought as you do I don't think we would have to have this sad conversation.

Don Corleone: I'm only looking at the working dogs, the judges have stopped looking at the GSD as a working dog and more of a sport dog.  Breeders know this and breed for it.  Competitors know this and buy and train for it. 

Then, so much's the pity, IMO. If you want a sport dog, why not go to a different breed with this sort of structure/mentality? I haven't a clue whether a Farrari sports dog will be reliable in real life.

I've seen Ivan Balabanov and Ken Hashimoto with their sport dogs in National competition.  Actually, they were faulted for having performances that appeared too choreographed and mechanical.

I don't want a dog whose intense focus makes him look as if he has a broken neck as part of his structural "excellence" or one whose full grip makes the dog look as if he has a fish in his mouth--lacking in fight drive, IMO .

 Okay:

 Let me start off by saying what knowledge and experience I have in Schutzhund is a drop in the expansive sea of dog trainining, so for those of you who want to call me uninteligent and clueless and half brained hey your probably right so I hope your superiorty makes you feel better I acknowledge your greatness and will lite a candle on a alter for you all.

Now I never claimed to have all the answers but from my lowley posistion I do have some ideas how ever nieve they might be. I,d like to see the gunshots back in the Bh as it is judged even though some of  judges I talk to feel the Bh is worthless. I,d love to see the attack on the handler back in the Sch1,which makes me ask a question to the knowledgeable just by the name  attack on the handler when I have seen it done the helper always seemed to direct his attention immedatley focused on the dog am I wrong but should not the focus be on the handler and the dog must stop the attack with forcefull gripping? I would think if the helper instantley ingaged the dog would it not defeat the purpose? I have ultimate respect for the helper so I,m not dissing any one who puts on the sleeve.  

I,d love to see the vertical wall back in the routine I built mine with a platform on the down side 1 foot below the level of the top of the wall so the dog does not have to finish with the large jump down. 

I.d do believe the reed or bambo should be back in for the work. 

I geuss my other idea would be a different trialing criteria. the Schutzhund 3 would not be rewarded at the club level it would take place during the before mentioned Breed Trial you would use the club trial as the teaching and refining  1-2 and the judging of the 3 would be at these breed trials all dogs show,work, would trial at the same time these would be large hopefully well attened trials with olympic style judgeing in all venues for a better evaluation of the dog.

I,d like to see a more detailed evaluation of the dog during protection work and gripping evaluation was the dog fighting the helper or merly hanging on for the ride.  

These are a couple thoughts of mine so mash away there just from a half brained, nitwit,lowlife, uneducated ,moroon. now that all the name calling is done how about a conversation about these ideas or any others on the subject . I,d like to hear a real opinion why this would not work and if not what would?      

Something I learned a long time ago in researching "Dressage" (horses) was that there is not a perfect trainer..master trainer.Even those that judge are always in training..There is no master judge.

There is a bunch of sports and other tests already available in different countries, but I guess this will not make the dog stronger if people will not breed the dogs based on their character first and points second whatever the venue. Maybe it´s not so much about the weakness of SCH, it´s more about judging and the selection of dogs to be breed, even if I find SCH not so intressting among the dogsports.   

I will preface this with the fact that I own both German SL and Czech/DDR working lines.

I agree with you guys on most of the working ability issues between the SL and WL, but, where I get confused here is with all the pro working dog people on one thing. Everyone talks so much about the working ability, but, what actual "work" are you doing? Very few of these dogs, my guess is less than 2% of the owned working line dogs, are actually doing any official work. By this I mean Police K-9, SAR, Military, Herding, etc. You all talk about how smart they are and everything, but, most of these dogs are just pets. It's kind of like bringing Michael Jordan and the 1990's Chicago Bulls to the playground and saying "Wow these guys are great basketball players!" You don't do any work with them, you don't compete in any sports because that is for idiots, so, they are just really smart pets! Those of you that own working line GSD's as pets are just as guilty of lessening the breed because you don't do anything with them. It's easy to bash sport people because "the sport isn't what it used to be", but, it still takes a hell of a lot of time, energy and money to train, compete and title these dogs. Certainly much more time and energy than owning a pet.

Most of us only have one avenue to "work" our dogs and it is sports like Schutzhund, Ring Sport, KNPV, PSA, Agility, etc.  Now I agree that this is not "real work", and they are sports, but, it is all we have unless we have an occupation that allows us to actually work our dogs. Yes, Schutzhund needs to be improved and hopefully along with it the breed will also.

The issue we really have here is that GSD's have really become two different breeds. One for show and one for go. This happened to Doberman's and this is also happening with Border Collies. Also sad in my opinion.  Each likes what they like for whatever reasons and I don't see this changing. Be happy with what you have and accept what others have, but, maybe try working together and the breed will be better for it.

This is a great discussion.

What are noteable changes took place (and when) with regard to SchH testing, from a Breed Cert to a Sport & Why were such changes introduced?

Why did KNPV, Mondio  not evolve as much for that matter?

Hello Fello GSD Enthusiasts, Great topic by the way.  Something has to be changed in order to improve the working ability of our dogs.  First off, there is no difference between a SL and WL that won't grip the sleeve or rag.  There are many reason why law enforcement has gone to other breeds.  Cost is a big one.  The breeder who does so to pay the mortgage is going to sell a dog for 10K to a sport trainer.  Why sell the same dog to law enforement for only a few grand.  There are people who actually believe it is more important to have a more sound sport dog than one for law enforcement.  Look what that kind of thinking brings us:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=0GE6XYKC-dE  (cut and Paste)

We must also concider why some of the exercises were taken out.  I think one reason is to keep folks involved with the sport.  The gunshot not being in the BH is not that big of a deal, its not a breeding title.

The attack out of the blind I would like to see brought back, because it is very telling.

The bamboo reed, why, when good, firm, well placed contact with the padded schlagstock will show results, and have.

The 6 ft wall is a good option for the KKL.

TSB must be done on a points system.  We all know that this is a difference between Zender and the majority of VA's.

Kyle