working VS Show - Page 4

Mr Hans i agree also only want to add that all who breed should have stock that is capable of any thing ask of the dog work sport or show why cant we all come to a understanding that the ultimate gsd would be one that could score well at a schuzhund trial go to work with local police dept and also do well in akc conformation it can be done that is what this breed is all about versatile

Thumbs up, Hans!

I don't understand all the divisions that have taken place within the breed.  American GSD, German SL GSD, and German WL GSD have all become so different, and that is really sad.  I agree that the breed was supposed to be a versatile breed, and to see how it's become so fractured...Is depressing, to say the least.

On the one hand, you've got some breeders of American lines telling newbies in the breed that German bloodlines are crap, completely full of all the worst health problems that exist in the breed, that they're all roach backed, megaE filled messes...

On the other you've got the German lines that are warring with each other, who's better, SL or WL?  We all know that the majority of the AM SL dogs are completely worthless, if not crippled, and I can't stand to see the dogs in the shows, how they stand and gait, how they look crippled...I could go on.   But it's preaching to the choir to even bother. 

There is one breed...It was that way, it should still be that way.  All the variations need to be brought back to the one:  The German Shepherd Dog.  Period.

Crys

Which is better?That my friend is the beginning of the useless division that exists in the gsd world of people today! As Bob so eloquently stated ! Schutzhund was never intended to be a point accumulation "trophy collecting " endevor! Growing up a germen shepherd was a german shepherd and today we have gsd varieties like flu strains! Get back to basics please!

Regarding dogs who's standard is the SV and FCI standard:

It's the BREED that's supposed to be versatile not each individual dog.  Go back and actually read the standard, it's a blue print.  This is why there is room for different types, that will still fit within the standard.  This is why you can have "v" rated working line dogs and "v" rated show line dogs.  They do NOT have to look or act as if they have been cut out with cookie cutters.  There is of course room for improvement in both the working and show lines, but the two do not have to be identical because the BREED is versatile.

I don't know where some of  you get the idea that working line and working dogs are not also dogs for sport.  Learn to study a few pedigrees, what do you think you will see behind the overwhelming majority of working dogs?   Some make a judgment about schutzhund and the dogs who compete yet   have never even attended a trial or a club and I am willing to bet specifically one of the most vocal critics on this board  has  never even actually seen a working line sport dog in the flesh.  IF you want people to take you seriously try forming an educated opinion based on fact and personal experience, learn for yourself,   rather than trying to argue about something you simply do not understand or parrot someone else's opinion simply because you think it fits what you want to believe.  Again, study pedigrees, study dogs,  you will find these sport dogs you think you look down your nose at happen to comprise  most working dog pedigrees.

Through the years and currently I am lucky to happen to know quite a few of what you would call "top sport" dogs and their handlers.  Just about every one of the dogs is quite capable of living comfortably in a house.  Just because a dog is super high drive does not mean it cannot live in a home.  Many times top competitors do not  keep their dogs in the house but it almost always has nothing to do with the dog not being capable of living in a home.  Do they require adequate  stimulation,  exercises and handling  - YES.  Are they the kind of dog that can live in the house with a couch potato who does nothing with the dog but sit on the couch and watch TV and not become destructive eventually - NO.  This is a far cry from some crazed dog who is not safe to keep in a home. 

As far as I'm concerned there isn't even any point in bringing American Line dogs into the discussion. They are so far gone they even have a different standard, and of course, no breeding requirements whatsoever. There is a reason they are called ASS and  not GSD.

">>>>Top sport is better then show, but not by much. Stephanitz said that breeding for any one sided extreme is a fault. Thus super high drive of a top sport dog is a fault. GSD is THE MOST VERSATILE DOG IN THE WORLD IT IS A WORKING DOG and if he can not be a house dog or S&R dog or Police dog, or guide dog for blind, then the dog has a problem. Most top sport dogs can not be house dogs because they would climb walls all day long. Most S/L can not do 80% and most top sport line can not do 50% of what real working dog should be able to do. Standard also says that GSD should not show signs of soft life. So there goes the US show line. <<<<"

Amen to that.

I said long time ago that both camps of breeders breed for extremes which is not good. It's hard to find a breeders that breed for balance. And I been at shows, working trails, and worked both SL and Sport dogs and only sometimes I work a dog that I consider the whole package. Currently I had a pleasure of working SL dog and Sport dogs that I both consider well balanced dogs. SL is retired police K9 which was a shocker for me, and the working dog is SCHIII which is just an awesome dog. Can you find balance in working dog and SL yes but is very hard to come across these dogs. So I do agree with Prager if you don't breed for balance every time very soon you loose it and start breeding for extremes. Most working line breeders breed for sport while SL for conformation and I do not like either type of dogs. I got my female from a guy that breeds dogs for personal protection and police work and I am doing SCh with her at this time, the dog will never be top scoring but she can easily do SCH and be a working dog at the same time.

This is as usually turninig into a bullshit discussion about the same old topic.Are you not tired of this crap.

Also i would like to add again for the hunderath time,anyone who thinks the high drive dogs can not live in the house please bring me your highst drive dog and i will show you how to make him live in the house with me.


People who think high drive dogs can not live in the house are total idiots in my eyes and have not got a clue about dogs.Have a nice one and i am looking for a challenge.

Hans certainly is NOT an idiot.   He is very knowledgeable about the GSD.  Held, apparently, you have never seen a "high-drive" ACTUAL Working Dog of which Hans speaks.

">>>>also do well in akc conformation<<<<"

AKC conformation are you for real? they support all what is wrong with the breed today,period no buts.

As i said please bring me one,and you have never seen a real malinois and i have and raised him in the house and lived in the house untill the last day at the age of 12.Enough talking i am telling you to bring it can not do better than that. Have a nice one.

Personally I do not think Hans is an idiot.  He holds a different opinion than I do, which is fine, because his opinion is based on his actual hands on considerable experience, which I respect.   What I cannot respect are people who have no experience but want to chime in, once again flapping their gums about something they have no first hand knowledge of, or even a basic elemental understanding of, because they just want to fight,  in short always talking out of their asses.    Those people truly  are idiots because they have no interest in learning, only fighting and being contrary.