Breeding/training goals - Page 4

Great input LaPorte You have been on both sides of the field and your thoughts are very consistent with the point I was making. You're right about some of the show dogs getting the occasional "bite" for the Sieger Show and after that it's all show type work or back to the whelping box Mr. VA1 :-) Some showline breeders and owners do actually work their dog and sometimes the efforts have little hope. Sometimes you'd be suprised on what some may suprise you and do. It happens as I said... So I'm guessing we are going to never get back on the topic of breeding goals here. LOL Not that I am helping much. LOL

Great input LaPorte You have been on both sides of the field and your thoughts are very consistent with the point I was making. You're right about some of the show dogs getting the occasional "bite" for the Sieger Show and after that it's all show type work or back to the whelping box Mr. VA1 :-) Some showline breeders and owners do actually work their dog and sometimes the efforts have little hope. Sometimes you'd be suprised on what some may suprise you and do. It happens as I said... So I'm guessing we are going to never get back on the topic of breeding goals here. LOL Not that I am helping much. LOL

are you still on-lone -- to answer you C. -- my pups are doing very fine -- we teach to bite HARD , fast and into body as pups -- i do not do a lot of agitation --one two passes with the tug -- pup is expected to bite -- i do rerquire the dog to be ovewrly stimulated -- the motivation is[should be there !! one , two dog bite -- also i teach ... nothing matters but the bite -- pup yopu cna be on a different surface ..bite ..jump over a plastic bottle .. pup get your bite -- but we reralize 50% is genetic and the other 50% is training -- they have good bites , good motivation to do work !! that is thje key -- the genetics is there !!-- i would like to say -- work -- must be defined -- i try to tell police officers as on has alluded to that you do not have to have the meanest , badest dog crazed uncontrollable canine -- one needs a dog that can do the work, highly innate motivation and clear headed enough to teach self control -- in the required context -- also .. i would take a HGH title or a tracking titled GSD and give it merit -- the problem that i see is two fold --one camp the show side has perverted what protection is or should be in the GSD at the expense of flashy placings // it is almost an entirely different subset of the GSD -- and the working people have overompensated thinking that a good working dog must be high in aggression and high in hardness --i see this with a lot of other european countires -- i personally feel .. my opinion for whatever it is worth -- the dogs from the 50s, 60s and 70,s [ check out the history on this website -- i congratalte the owner .. very very nice history of VA s ]are great representations of the GSD -- what is /was wrong with the GSD conformation then , that there is such a great difference presently -- i have met a person that trained those dogs from the 60's ... -- those seigers could "work" -- so my belief is that : it is very very possible to have good/great confornmation with protection and not have crazed GSDs -- but the showline folks cannot have THE SHOW foremost and they must not pervert the protection /call it protection --when all they want to do s get that protection phase just to have the dog show worhty to place VA or V -- come on -- Sch folks -- i often state i can get a golden retiever to do bite work on a sleeve -- that in and of itself sdoes not make the dog breed worthy !! but then again you can have super protection intstict into a showline dog if you selectively breed it -- [ also don't let us forget the GSD is ther most mutlifunctional dog in the world -- search and rescue / seeing eye need not havbe protection but can be a great GSD ] - and i agree wioth the point one made -- in regasrds to .. who wants a dog who BLAH BLAH BLAH -- HEY -- the GSD is toi have gueard and most often protection instincts and as ther standards states be amiable but aloof -- -- if you do not like that -- GET A DIFFERENT BREED !!stop worrying about the $500,000.oo for 1st place -- let's just start producing NOBLE Appearing good conformation dogs that can work !! MY GOAL: : my pups doing great .look good showline and part working line !! i'll get back to the roots !! a MAX's idea of the GSD

Nice insight ALPHAPUP You're reiterating what I said to. The VA dogs sometime ago had nice confirmation and could work. The same thing could be possible now if showline breeders put effort to do so. Perhaps in Europe (certainly not as common now as before) but in the US some prefer the high prey dog over the aggressive dog in protection. I prefer a nice balance and probably 60% aggression/40% prey. Certainly not 80% prey/20% aggression.

Had to go back and find the quote...(to back up my raising the question of imported showline studs actually working in this country) "At this point, it would seem that I have all the drives I bred for and yet the only interest is from pet homes. If working ability is so precarious in the showlines why isn't the phone ringing off the hook?" (Judyk) Question - has this stud you bred to ever been trialed in this country? How many people have actually seen him work? I would assume that you have, seeing as you bred your female to him, but beyond that, how often is he known/seen outside the conformation ring? I would guess that if he had been trialed over here and had done well, even at a local level, the showline people would be beating down your door trying to get those pups. I am NOT implying that he does or doesn't have extraordinary drives (I don't know the dog at all) - just wondering if he has been in any trials since coming over. If so, local? Regional? National? Nearly every showline male imported as a stud is SchH3 and at least V rated. How many of them show what they can do after purchase - outside their own club, in a trial situation no less. (Sorry, but club training only shows so much, especially when there are leashes, prongs, ecollars, and short bite sessions.) Next question (probably controversial) - how many showline people even THINK of obedience and tracking when choosing a stud? Seems all I hear/heard from them is based on the Seiger show 2 bites...and hearsay from another country (often from the person who brokered the deal). Yes, bitework is a great evaluation, BUT it is a 3 phase sport... I hear working line people walk about "balanced 3 phase dogs" when considering studs. I also hear them checking the scores of the dogs (not just the titles). I hear them say "Dog A does well in x, less well in y, and superb in z" (or whatever)...whereas I don't see the show people really LOOKING for the info very often. Just my experience, having been on both sides of the fence. ALSO, perhaps the cost of the resulting pups makes breeding simply for looks and pedigrees far more lucrative. Let's face it, working a dog for trials and having them do well? It takes alot of effort. Saying you have a SchH3 V rated stud and SchH 1 V bitch with alot of famous dogs in the background can only require monetary investment (OK, I KNOW there are people that title their own dogs - making a HUGE generalization here, just for the sake of an extreme example). Compare the puppy prices in working lines and showlines...scary difference in the market... Just another thing to throw into the thread. I think people need to be out WORKING and TRIALING their dogs - showlines AND working lines - before making big claims of their 'working ability'. Not trying to step on anyone's toes here, just sharing my opinion.

Again well said LaPorte I think you "hit the nail on the head" this time especially concerning the (2) bites and deep evaluation in how the prospective stud tracks, what his/her obedience is like.

Molly says - I just haven't seen very many strong-working show-line dogs. I've been to two Seiger Shows and countless Breed Surveys - and I can count on three fingers the show-line dogs I circled in my catalog as being more than adequate in the bitework. Adequate meaning, he came to the helper, he bit without the sleeve being stuffed into his mouth, he held on by himself during stick hits without mouthing or having the helper "help" the sleeve stay in his mouth, and he guarded without backing up 10' and looking around for his handler for help. I just haven't personally seen enough 'good working' show line dogs to be able to agree that there are many of them out there. And even if they do exist (more than a handful of them) - are they producing the same great drives and nervestrengths? - where are they in the working trials? Where are they at the Regional and National level in Schh3? I only see them at the SS where they show themselves for 3 minutes in an easy pass/fail test where the helper isn't really pressing them. I agree with Czechdawgs - I would have to see to believe, that there are such show-line dogs that are outstanding in the work. I would love to see it though! It would be refreshing to me, who gets depressed after every SS's protection work.

Laporte - --no rebutle from me -- !! i second your posts -- ditto for luvczech -- but i will say -- ??? previuos post ... 3 phases ?? --not to me -- PROTECTION ..OH OH -- PROTECTION .. or at least my goal for bredding and training -- they are all one in the same !! my protection -- one asked about my pups -in sport locally [as well as my own dogs]they are taught self-control , and within the protection too .. that is the obedience ... they take my direction --i do not order- they bite when i tell and my 20 week pups are taught to out too -- ... tracking .. well in order to apprehend .. you better be able to use your nose to !! the blnd search gee -- the dog should be able to use it's nose and search by ground or air however the routine is just to choreographed .the dog knows the routine -- it should have to search the ground/air IMO - protection is tracking/use of nose too , at least in other sports ----to defend and apprehend is to protect -- ALL three phases ARE protection --i repeat : protection is obedience and tracking and defending all into one -- my goal in breeding and training --i hope my pups can handle it all 3 or should i say all 1 with their genotype/phenotype --

Alphapup - yes, you can see a picture of the dog in protection, but it's realtively easy to show a few bites on club day or at a Seiger Show and impress novices with "working ability"...that's why I say people need to be out working all 3 phases and actually trialing, for real, off their home fields, and with a variety of judges and helpers. Doesn't need to be "The Nationals" - but good grief - show what your dogs can do at least somewhere if you are promoting a stud or dam with "exceptional working ability"... Why don't you see 'show people' doing this? Is it the dog itself, the way it was titled originally, or the current owners?

When we discuss working line/show line dogs we have to keep the goals for the respective breeder's in mind. A typical show line breeder breeds for: Color (dark brown, and dark black, preferably black marking on the face), dark eyes Large size, and large head Correct and fluid movement A dog who can get titled, regardless of scores, and early maturing dog because they want to slap the titles as quickly as possible so they can start breeding the dogs and make money. Drives in tracking and obedience phase are not important because nobody pays attention to those as long as the dog is SchH3, KKL1. A lot of times these dogs are worked before they are even mature because the market demands it, it is not important that the dog enjoys the training. A typical working line breeder wants: Good grips (every judge pays way too much attention to this), good barking (notice I did not say good guarding, because if the dog barks a judge can not take points off, whereas if a dog guards, he may go over the balance, and bite), quick strikes (we are breeding short legged dogs because of quick sprinting), reactive obedience (they may be too much to live with), high prey and play drive, medium large, and good jaw strength. Sometimes the emphasis on play and prey drive makes the nerves too stable, thus they loose the true guarding instinct. Very few breeders breed for a correct german shepherd dog because the market looks for winners. The specialization has polarized the breed so much that even the established breeders don't dare to combine the two even when it makes sense. Ajay Singh www.ajaysingh.com