2008 USA Sieger Show - Page 6

It does NOT matter HOW the title was gained, as long as the work was done and it was not done quickly. One need not be a training expert to know that quick training, be it with humans or dogs, does not really encompass true learning and training.

I agree, if and when I had a dog who I could not train to its top level, then I might consider paying someone to train, as some have done with me. That is NOT the issue. The issue is the QUALITY of the training as evidenced, in this instance, by the poor work at the SS. (And by the way, a national level competitor told me recently that he witnessed some incredibly poor performances in a recent national level event. He was sick over the lack of training for the dogs.

Sure, the dogs shown in the SS are relatively small group compared to the country. But it does highlight what seems to be a real and pervasive problem. The dogs are NOT getting enough training, or are getting poor training or they are, in some measure deficient in temperament and abilities, even if nice looking. 

Kennel blindness extends to not being able to see ones' dog who is pleasing to the eye may not, in fact, have what it takes to do good work. It also extends to seeing that one's dog who is an outstanding worker and solid V rated dog cannot produce good ears.

Admittedly, some set the bar for performance too high. I am not asking for dogs to go flying like we see in the Israeldogs.com videos and which turn my stomach for the injuries these dogs will eventually suffer. Nor am I asking for 100s in scores or anything of the kind. But there is a level of competency that MUST be and should be displayed. Further, when that is NOT demonstrated, the judge MUST have the courage and ability to see it is not there and so judge. We ALL know or should know what is required and we just do not see that here, but rarely.

How do we fix it? It cannot be fixed until acknowledged and that must happen at all levels.

 Chris,

I think you misunderstand what I said. Let me be more clear. For me, I look first and foremost to the dogs' working ability. And then I look to structure. IF I would be so lucky to find it, I would be looking for high placed dogs who, in a perfect world, were in the top group and had excellent working abilities AND structure. Fact is, few do, even among those ranked high, be it for show or trials.

As for my breeding, as you know, I rarely breed. And if and when I do, I will be breeding based on working ability first and also trying to breed dogs who meet the standard. I do not kid myself as some of you do, that any dog I breed will ever be in any top 10. But if and when I go to a SS, you can be certain they will be V or SG rated AND, more importantly, they will not do piss poor bitework as most of these dogs did. I already proved that once with Donni and I probably will not have the opportunity to do so again, for a variety of reasons.

 Chris, 

I did not see your earlier post. Of course, I certainly know how much work, money, time and effort goes into taking a dog to any show, including Germany. Of course I know that. And I applaud yours or anyone else's efforts to do so. However, for what it is worth, in my own system of ranking, no, I do NOT consider a dog a top dog just because it got any particular ranking. Frankly, if the dog was a VA and was in a very small class as is the case often in Canada, for example, I am not terribly impressed based ONLY on that placement. I look for other things besides that. In fact, because the system is so screwed up in my opinion, and working ability is NOT counted as it should be, I would much rather take and perhaps buy a lower ranking dog in conformation IF I saw proof that it has the working ability.

So if you want to be insulted, well, I suppose you can be. But my comments were not directed towards insulting anyone, least of all you. I am trying to point out that working ability is lacking in many of the top ranked conformation dogs. That is a FACT and the proof is given once again in this most recent SS. HEll, I should know. I got last place V rating with my female several years ago, but damn it, she was one of the very best workers and, if all was laid out, I bet was probably the only really seriously trained SchH3 there.                     

For what it is worth, I am not competing with you or anyone else. I compete within myself. I know a V rated dog when I see it, and I know a dog who is a well trained dog and one who can do the work. But I am saying and supporting those who say the current situation is unacceptable. It is also true in Germany and some of the best judges we have had here are also among those trying hard to fix it there. Unfortunately, change comes slowly and money only slows progress.

Lots of good discussion here; these two really stand out:

Pia wrote:  "If I had a dog especially out of my breeding program  that could make the world level yet I could NOT bring the dog to that level  for whatever reason but wanted it for the dog I would not hesitate to turn the dog over to the handler/trainer that could .    I would not call that a  bought ticket to the WUSV . I would call it smart mangement  of an excellent dog ."

Excellent statement.  I can't understand the bashing of Dog1.  ANY athlete in a sporting competition has coaching to reach full potential.  Can you imagine saying about a football player or a boxer, oh, he BOUGHT his achievements, you know.  His parents sent him to a team with a COACH.  and TRAINERS! They didn't train him themselves to compete, so it's not worth much.  Now if you CAN train it all yourself, that is absolutely awesome and more power to you.  Yes, I think that would be a more personal thrill, but the fact is that not all of us have that ability no matter how hard we try.  I take off my hat to those that do, but I understand that not everyone can do that.

hodie wrote this and it should be on every judge's mirror:

"there is a level of competency that MUST be and should be displayed. Further, when that is NOT demonstrated, the judge MUST have the courage and ability to see it is not there and so judge."

I tend to be a 'glass half full' person and I think that posting videos of these performances for the world to see is the beginning of the road to improvement.  Why, look what a great discussion is going on here right now.  Even with so many people disagreeing the dialogue is continuing with respect from all to all (mainly - LOL).  Who knew?!  [laughing]

Having always been an owner-handler with my own dogs, I can't help but feel for those who did have HOT dogs at this show (or any other show where the judging is biased). IMO at least one HOT dog out performed all of the others who qualified but ended up with the same rating as those who didn't hold on to the sleeve or heeled on their bellies, etc.. I'd have to think that would be a big disappointment to many and could really turn off some who enjoy the sport. It could also eliminate many good dogs from the breeding pool.

I hope they were all H.O.T.  because if someone paid for that training, it makes it that much worse!

A person who has actually accomplished something with their own dog/s will naturally be assigned a higher level of credibilty than one who has purchased dogs already titled or paid to have their dogs titled.

Hodie, no offense taken! I just wanted to make sure that no accomplishments are diminished, regardless in what field!

TessJ, great statement. Exactly how I feel!

A dog is not worth less, if he is not breeder or owner trained. If I want my dog to succeed (or the breeding program in general), I have no problem with paying or hiring somebody to do so.

It seems that only here in the U.S., people have a problem with sending dogs away for training and titling. In Germany (or the rest of Europe), people might say: Great dog, who was the handler who did such a super job! They praise the dog and the handler, and not chide the breeder or owner for not doing it himself (or herself).

Another thought: If a workingline dog is sent away for training and titling, it is ok? But with a showline dog that same procedure is "bought"? I call that "selective thinking".

Chris                                                                                          

I guess all my years showing horses makes me more open to the idea of having a professional train and at time compete with an animal.  I'm not sure why that's such a big issue here.   If you can do it yourself, super, wonderful, more power to you, and I mean that, not being a smart ass.

To me the big issue should be the quality of the "protection"  work we all were able to observe thanks to lonewulf posting the videos.

Chris

I have nothing against paid training, but If I send my kid to a paid math tutor, My kid better get what I am paying for!

We see some of the perrenial "all-stars" of schutzhund buy their dogs.  Over the past 10 years, how many National winners were HOT?

Even with a trained dog, there is still work to do.  There will be things that you want to change or correct.