Silho shepherds - Page 6

.....  as well as the Terrier and the Bull dog....  called a TerriBull... 

ok.  I'll stop.

I admit I was interested in Shilohs about 10 years ago, maybe longer, and joined their 'club' to become more educated. What I found was alot of political crap going on between te two clubs.  I also met a few people who had "experiences" with the breed founder and they were very very negative experiences.

One , now a good friend of mine, visited her kennel after deciding to purchase a breeding pair of puppies,,unfortunately she was in to deep to get out of what she was getting into,,lets just say, she was pretty disgusted with the what she saw..Upon receipt of the two puppies,,one died within a week of parvo,,she was sent a replacement,,which ended up with HD so severe, it was put down at 6months,,the male she originally had, also had HD, and had surgery when he was 2 years old. I have to say he was a really nice dog, temperament wise, but basically a big long haired shepherd.

I have talked to numerous shiloh owners who have filed complaints with the AG dept, against the founder. Thankfully, I got outta dodge before getting sucked in.

In the end, it's really sad for these dogs, how many are listed in the OFA database? not many. 

I always suggest to ANYONE interested in the Shilohs,,you want a BIG german shepherd,,they are a dime a dozen within the GS breed, you just gotta look for them.

BTW, I have DDR dogs , always have and always will.:)))

A show I was at a couple years ago had a rare breed class, a Shiloh "breeder' camped in front of us.  Nice enough pets if you like that sort of thing but there were nothing more than a Malamute/shepherd cross. 

I talked to many Shiloh breeders years ago.  from both sides of the arguement, Tina Barber's people, and then the other breeders who had branched off.

The one group who had branched off were very helpful, supplying me with many pedigree's going back 13 gen. or more.  they were also very willing to show health certifications ect.  and they were more than willing to discuss teh ancestor's of their dogs.  I remember 1 blk/tan bi color bitch who was only 4 or 5 gen removed from having a pure wolf ancestor.   I believe the breeds involved in creating the shiloh were, american german shepherds, white german shepherds, malamutes, great pyrenes, and a few wolves. these people know the dogs weaknesse/problems and are trying to breed them out. basically these are the people improving the breed and will eventaully make it what it was invisioned to be.

Tina has since imported a few coated (old world) german dogs, hence the NB dogs.  that helped the weak temp and nerve issue on some, and added much needed new blood into the gene pool. The only thing I know inregards to Tina Barber and her Zion kennel is what I have heard and read about on the internet.  and I have heard some bad things.

I have no problem with these people wanting to, or thinking they are, creating a new breed,  all breeds started out like this.  But you have to admit, 2500 for a pet and 4500-5000 for show/breeding on co-own is ridiculous and can only be for the money.  You can not justify a price like this. not even if these dogs were highly titled and shown around the world.

to the person who originally started this thread, if this is what you are looking for, go for it,  but definitly do your homework on the breeder and the lines.  look for a breeder  who chooses for good stable temp.  you still want a confident dog, not one who won't walk on slick floors or pee's on itself if you stand over it.   and look for one who is going above and beyond on their breeding stocks health tests. OFA, PENNHIP, OFA Cardic, CERF, VWD, OFA THROID ect.

you stated you want a "soft dog".  well make sure you realize what the def. of that is.  you are going to have a dog who is very submissive (you may have a submissive wetting problem), probably won't do well outside the home in public.  you will have to really socialize this pup and builds its confidence to make sure it isn't afraid of its own shadow

someone posted that a "hard" temp shiloh will be comparable to a med. level gsd.  I would hate to see a soft shiloh.

and Yes, you can find gsd with the traits you are looking for, send me a private message or email and I can forward you to some that stand behind their dogs and are reputable.

Here are the OFA stats on various breeds and their results for hips.

http://www.offa.org/hipstatbreed.html

Here's the real scoop on the Shiloh, from someone who's read Tina's book, and has a friend who owns two Shilohs, and whose GSD bitch has a couple of Shiloh ancestors (from before the split with the AKC.) I have also taken part in two tracking seminars with the Shiloh folks. I've probably met at least 25 Shilohs so far, and both the dogs and their owners have been very friendly. 

The breed began with large GSD's, that had been crossed with the best of both imported and AKC lines. Tina wanted to recreate the Sheperds her grandmother had raised, which had been in great demand in the small town where she lived as watchdogs and protectors. These dogs WERE oversized, and I think many of them were long coats, too. (This was in Poland, but Tina and her family are from Germany.)

Eventually, Tina broke with the AKC as she hated what was happening to the GSD during the 70's and 80's, which was when they American dogs became so badly overangulated, and many had temperment problems as well. She had to make the break in order to preserve the traits she wanted in her dogs. Her first outcross was to Samson, a dog that was primarily GSD, but had some malemute ancestry. Further outcrosses were Artus, an Alte Deuthscher Shaeferhund and Hoofprint Orbit, a white GSD. Orbit was used only once, and I'm not sure how often the others were used, but it was only often enough to infuse some new blood into the gene pool to prevent it becoming too inbred. Yup, that's IT, folks. A total of THREE outcrosses. No, these dogs are NOT JUST MUTTS!

As you know, many people have split away from the ISSR (Tina's breed registry) due to differences of opinion. Here's where the confusion over what is REALLY a Shiloh comes in. The 'splinters' as Tina calls them, have continued to outcross their dogs, both to GSD's and, in some cases, as someone said above, to wolves. There have been over 50 outcrosses to GSD's in the last few years alone, yet the breeders continue to call their dogs Shilohs! There is NO wolf blood in the original Shilohs, except a very small amount through the Samson cross (malemutes have wolf blood, as you probably know.)

The Shilohs I have met nearly all have very good temperments. However, they have all been ISSR Shiohs. I understand the other registries have less stable temperments due to the introduction of wolf blood, and outcrossing to German, DDR and Czech dogs with hard temperments. (Yes, I know a hard temperment doesn't mean a dog is unstable, only that it needs the right handler to channel its drives.)

Some people wonder why it has taken so long for Tina to get her dogs recognized. The main reason is the splitting away of so many breeders caused her to lose dogs from her breeding program, and reduced the size of the available gene pool.

I refuse to get involved in the mud-slinging debate over who has the moral high ground when it comes to the battle between the ISSR and the other registries. One thing I know for sure is Tina has worked very, very hard to create this breed. She is fanatical about recording data about each litter, to track what each dog in her breeding program is producing, and has done this from the very start. It would be a terrible waste if all her decades of hard work came to nothing.

Link to Shiloh breed standard:

http://www.shilohshepherds.info/issrShilohShepherdIllustratedBreedStandard.htm

Sunsilver, are you saying all the horror stories involving Tina Barber's kennel are false?  I remember a big deal a few years, 5 or more, that involved a bunch of Tina's dogs being placed into shelters because they were very fear full and totally unsocialized. She was finished with them as breeders.  is this a story made up by the other side of the shiloh breeders?  how about all the claims made towards Tina as a reputable breeder?  How about all the major hip issue's?  also, please justify for me at least the prices that are placed on Shiloh puppies?  John Q public continue's to pay these prices, the breeders will continue charging them.  same happens with the gsd breed. people charge waay to much for puppies when they are a crap shoot.

Cross a Leonberger with a King Shepherd?  "Have it your way"!

These breeds may have derived from German Shepherds, but they are not German Shepherds, they have no working standards, and as much right for discussion on this forum as poodles!

CHARACTER: Courageous and self confident, this gentle giant possesses superior intelligence wrapped in a heart of gold, faithfully protecting his home and those he loves. This extremely versatile and easily trained companion loves to swim, carry packs for the mountain climber, endure long trail rides, or pull heavy sleds. His excellent Air Scenting ability can be utilized in various ways.

In the 40 some year breed history, has one ever gained a working title of any kind?  Know of any being utilized for their excellent Air Scenting abilities?  "wrapped in a heart of gold"?  What kind of foo-foo standard is this?  Trail rides?  English or western saddle, snaffle bit?  Sled dog?  Yeah, right.

A fine family companion, I'm sure.  But not worth discussion on a working-breed forum.

Amen, daryl.