TIEKERHOOK breedings in the USA???? - Page 6

I have the same Leerburg video RDH, and he sounds right on to me.  The courage test isn't a courage test at all, and the more I learn the less titles mean to me too.  So where from here?  PPdogs? LE dogs?

Well... As with anything Leerburg, that guy is right... but ony PARTIALLY. He does not tell the whole thing and he generalizes a lot, I guess in order to sell his videos, puppies and wares. He brushed everything with a singe stroke, and yes, every good story has to have some truth in it and this one does as well.

Generally speaking... what I have observed a LOT of Schutzhund dogs are what we call "point dogs", they do all the exercises in military precision, bite deep and hard and fight the decoy with the sleeve but WILL NOT protect in real life scenario.

On the other hand, A LOT of Schutzhund dogs will NO DOUBT bite somebody they perceive as a threat sleeve or no sleeve and that is a fact as well.

Just this past Sunday, 2 days ago, I have wintnessed it with a green dog.

The dog engaged a decoy with the sleeve. A little tussle etc... as usual the sleeve was slipped, the dog "won" did the circle". For some reason a somewhat newbie handler dropped the leash, decoy was standing maybe 20 feet away and dropped the agitation whip to the ground. The dog spat the sleeve and charged at him FOR REAL. You can see it in his body language.

I was behind the fence with the others, it wasn't my dog (he will ge his first chance to work again next week after 3 months of sitting on his ass).

All I could do was get up off the chair and yell, hoping to distract the dog. The decoy was very calm and collected, although there wasn't that much time, he grabbed the agitation whip and pivoted letting the dog get it in his mouth and rammed it in there.

By that time the stunned newbie handler ran up and clipped the leash on. These things always happen so fast, there is barey time to think or to say... what the ... and bam, it's there.

Decoy did good, though and he told them: Well, you wanted to know if you can have a home protector who will do it for real, I guess we've answered that.

Ok, so the point is, many Schutzhund dogs won't do it for real and many would, it really and truly does depend on the dog.

Me, personally, I will try to take the dog and me as far as we can go as a team in Schutzhund. I am hoping at least Regionals, and after that go personal protection route and have the dog as a companion and a family member afterwards.

As somebody above mentioned, it;s a big liability and not a "parlor trick" to have a dog that will bite anyone anywhere on command when told to, and indeed it is not.

As far as biting for real, we always have to go back to drives civil, defense, prey etc... A whole lot of Schutzhund dogs are prey drivers. Prey in itself is NOT enough to get the dog through the fight when the shit hits the fan, that's why that lady's dog was just dancing around when she was being beaten... Where is the sleeve, mom, where is the sleeve.

Of course, not anyone SHOULD own the "real deal", a dog with cobra-like stare who sees through bluffing like celophane and lunges forward dead serious. If fact, most people should not.

That JIm Duncan guy who works with "for real" dogs should probably shed more light here than I could.

 

Red sable--I will go with pp dog. What is LE stand for?

Im talking about personal protection dog that is social with people and family unless given command compared to guard dogs that are aggressive to everything...that is not what im interesed at all what so ever. My personal protection dog should easily get a CGC and TDI with no problem. I just want a great dog that can do some of the sports I'm interested in and still me a great ppd.


ADi--I think schutzhund dogs are point dogs not protectors, which is fine if that is what the handler wants. Some people inquire about ppd and don't know what they are getting themselves into. That is why they should do extensive research and talk to many breeders, trainers, and handlers to find out more. I honestly think some people don't have enough knowledge to handle a ppd properly.

Me, personally, I will try to take the dog and me as far as we can go as a team in Schutzhund. I am hoping at least Regionals, and after that go personal protection route and have the dog as a companion and a family member afterwards.

your opposite from my friend with the dutchie...she is French Ring or PSA then Schutzhund is completely last on her list. There is alot of reasons why for this though (dogs personality). Its whatever your goals are with your dog. With the real deal comment I do agree with that. I would leave those dogs up to law enforcement or military enforcement. They go through alot more thing than a average person would.

RDH:   you are completely correct about most people do not even know what a ppdog is? nor do they understand what they are asking for.

Hi RDH, I was meaning where to go to get a dog with real courage.  I don't like a social butterfly.  I like an aloof dog that is wary of strangers.  I've had one and he was also clear headed, great with all children but just not the type to lick everyone and jump all over them.  LE meant from a dog that is a police dog, (law enforcement)

I like a dog with as much defense as prey.  I don't believe a dog has to be a whacky ball of energy to learn obedience, track and to protect, but that is my opinion.

LE stands for Law Enforcement = police, military etc... usuay when people say LE, it's police.

ADi--I think schutzhund dogs are point dogs not protectors, which is fine if that is what the handler wants. - Not true. Again, a lot of them are, a lot of them are not. For the umpteenth time (not to you but people in general) - It depends on the dog.

Some people inquire about ppd and don't know what they are getting themselves into. - This is correct and is a wrong approach. They are, well, some ignorant people are looking for a dog to do what should be done with a Mossberg 500 Persuader.

I honestly think some people don't have enough knowledge to handle a ppd properly. --  Change "some" in your sentence to "most" and you nailed it.

your opposite from my friend with the dutchie... -  That is fine, different strokes for different folks. Dutch Shepherds are also a different thing than a GSD (in general), both are fruits, but one is apple one is orange.

Again, I am a little bit different than most people as I don't view Schutzhund as a sport. To me - it is not. It used to be a "breed temperament test" for a GSD and to me it still is. If my dog does 75 t, 85 OB and 96 protection and I see and read the dog the way I think it should react and do - I am the happiest. I don't give a crap about crooked sit. I say come and sit, the dog did exacty that. Fine by me. Splitting hairs like most people do that want to go "high" with the dog - umm, move 3 millimeters to my knee - is not for me.

Its whatever your goals are with your dog. - See above my thoughts regarding Schutzhund. Think of the Schutzhund as a basis or rather a foundation for personal protection, police etc... Schutzhund has been in the past a test to separate crap from good stuff, weeds from flowers etc... It has become "sport" later on with points and so on.

With the real deal comment I do agree with that. - I always say what I honestly believe, no bul hell or high water. A lot of people don't like me for that, but I just like a clean slate, so everyone always know what I think, no politics or crap.

I would leave those dogs up to law enforcement or military enforcement. - Yes, mostly true. A real, REAL tough mothereffer, is not truly suitable to be a family member or a companion. It is possible, and I have seen it happen, but in general, a dog is a law officer and all that goes with that.

But again, a lot of Schutzhund dogs are points dogs and are actively steered in that direction. But, trust me, I have seen and trained with (and actualy got the sleeve and agitated a dog a few times) just to see the difference between the points dog and one that will maul you for real when the situation goes down the crapper. There is a clear difference.

One of the supreme court judges said about pornography: I don't know how to define it, but I know it when I see it. Same goes for "real" schutzhund dogs. YOu know it when you see it and there is a LOT of them out there.

Also, I have to reiterate, I am speaing about Schutzhund dogs from the working lines. I do not know shit about showlines or american lines and that is not where my interest lies at all, so I cannot offer my opinion and talk about something I am not familiar with. Couldn't care less about those dogs.

Red Sable--we are in the same boat. I'm still researching breeders and dogs as we speak. I think its more or less of who you train with, how you train, and if your dog is genetically born with the traits. Always make sure you have a good trainer or decoy that can read the dog or you can set your dog up for failure. There are tons or ways and methods to train your dog...one key is not to set your dog up for failure again. I'm sticking with the working line gsd for now because for me a showline is more of a house pet when i decided to get one. My second choice is a dutchie or mali. I've been around of alot of dutchies they are nice dogs but full of energy. Do you have people in you area that train for PSA? If so, ask them about their dogs and get their breeders information. I hope you find the dog with the qualities your looking for. I hope I do Ive been going round and round trying to figure out what gsd I really want and my intentions are for about 4 years now...lol I finally got it through my head what I really really want and will settle for others later.

Yellowrose you are telling me! I see alot of dumb asses out here that don't know what the proper defination of what a personal protection dog is (they give the complete opposite--guard dog). Research research research and plus getting on the field to get a better understand and ideal.

My retired Police k9 Ando v. TsaLi is out of Pablo v. Tiekerhook.  He came to me just shy of 2 years old. At that time, he was already very mature, mentally and physically stable, strong and able to handle stress. He was and still is handler easy, works for me because he knows that's his job. He OFA's Excellent and has virtually no health problems. I know that Tiekerhook dogs are costly, but I'd purchase one if I had the $ and depending on what I needed him for. I'm very happy with my Tiekerhook decent.  

It totally depends upon the dog ..... while everyone here did not even know the word Tiekerhook I was working one in the sport and on the road in police work in the county to the south side of Detroit in the early and mid 1990's. My Orthos was truely an animal. I had 12 bites with him and a few of them the peck muscles were pulled from the bone. He loved to bite high ...... He truely was a malinois in a GSD body. Although I could work him in a SchH-DPO trial and then go to work on the street in the Pol-unit and he could transition. I scored many SG's and a few V performances in protection ..10x Sch3 and 9x DPO/WPO... but his desire to work was second to none, even with his attitude he was one helluva demo - public relations dog ...(with the children). Orthos was retired from the SchH field at 6 yrs old because of an ACL injury but was able to do police work for another 3 years .... so in closing you can do both but must first have the right dog and know how to train with deviation to accomplish this.     Best Regards ..... His plaque of accomplishments still sits on my wall as I see it daily ... GregM

Foundation Tiekerhook far different than present Tiekerhook.   Reputation is based on foundation stock and production.   Current breedings (last 8-10 years apx.) VASTLY different.   Nick/Yoshy/Fero to the point of incest.  These lines can be found throughout Europe.  When you inbreed so intensely, you can get great combos.  You can also get total disasters.  If you cull (yes - kill pups) who are disasters, you can be deemed a sucess.   Save your money and find a nicely bred dog elsewhere.  Tiekerhook is resting as much -if not more -on it's laurels than recent accomplishments.

Greg - the pedigree of your Orthos goes to my point.  Out of an Estera daughter and the phenomenal Asko J K.  A more foundation bred Tiekerhook dog not a Fero incestous pedigree.  Sounds like a great dog.