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by DDR-DSH on 30 July 2009 - 08:07
Hello, Two Moons!
We meet, again! Remember I said that it took ten years for me to finally getting around to have a litter? Helloooo!!!!! This is one of the reasons why!! I was NOT looking forward to it.. It seemed to happen to me every time I had a litter, that one or two pups would be left over! Guess how you get up to 50 plus dogs... A litter at a time, is how. 25 seems to be the tipping point. Beyond that, you lose all control. I had a licensed kennel, and I HAD to run it as a business, or I risked getting redefined as a "passive activity" and losing my tax deductions. So, I had to be pretty aggressive in attempts to raise income, and when you have a kennel, there are not that many ways to make money.. Actually, it is said that you can only run a kennel by doing a little bit of everything.. training, sales, grooming, boarding. But the sales of dogs / pups can generate return business. Anyways.. It wasn't worth it. I'd make a little money and lose it all back, again in dog food, vet expenses and so on. Worse, eventually I could not keep up with all the work involved.
My problem was YOUR problem, multiplied times four or five, over several years.
What I learned is that dog breeding does not make good business. It is highly cyclical, and the cycles are quite unpredictable. And, unlike manufactured and produced goods, we cannot just have a big sale and then restock our shelves when the market looks better.
The real nature of the problem we have with dogs is that they are still very much like natural ancestors.. wolves.. which have one good sized litter per year. The reason that animals have so many young is that not all are expected to survive. In a wolf litter, maybe one or two will survive past their first winter. We expect the pups all to live. But, in reality, that is not natural. And nature has it's own birth control. Only the dominant male and his mate are allowed to breed.. They see to that. Overpopulation could be disastrous for all the pack members. On top of that, if there are food shortages or other environmental stress factors, a wolf bitch might not ovulate, go into estrus, or concieve. If she does concieve, she may reabsorb her litter. If her litter is born, she might kill and eat one or more. But, the point is that nature has it's own way to compensate for shortages and high mortality. Now, we take the same creature, domesticate it, give it the best diet and care and breed it.. then expect all the pups to survive!
Some breeders say that they have waiting lists. Frankly, I don't believe most of them. I have never known of a breeder who did not in fact get stuck with pups for awhile.
Since we have no controls and cannot predict down market cycles or limit supply, I think that it is safest to assume that you may have to hang onto approximately half of your litter for several months, and maybe one or two as long as a year. Plan for the worst, and hope for the best.. That's all you can do. But believe me, you are not alone. And the most common scenario is to get stuck with females.
We meet, again! Remember I said that it took ten years for me to finally getting around to have a litter? Helloooo!!!!! This is one of the reasons why!! I was NOT looking forward to it.. It seemed to happen to me every time I had a litter, that one or two pups would be left over! Guess how you get up to 50 plus dogs... A litter at a time, is how. 25 seems to be the tipping point. Beyond that, you lose all control. I had a licensed kennel, and I HAD to run it as a business, or I risked getting redefined as a "passive activity" and losing my tax deductions. So, I had to be pretty aggressive in attempts to raise income, and when you have a kennel, there are not that many ways to make money.. Actually, it is said that you can only run a kennel by doing a little bit of everything.. training, sales, grooming, boarding. But the sales of dogs / pups can generate return business. Anyways.. It wasn't worth it. I'd make a little money and lose it all back, again in dog food, vet expenses and so on. Worse, eventually I could not keep up with all the work involved.
My problem was YOUR problem, multiplied times four or five, over several years.
What I learned is that dog breeding does not make good business. It is highly cyclical, and the cycles are quite unpredictable. And, unlike manufactured and produced goods, we cannot just have a big sale and then restock our shelves when the market looks better.
The real nature of the problem we have with dogs is that they are still very much like natural ancestors.. wolves.. which have one good sized litter per year. The reason that animals have so many young is that not all are expected to survive. In a wolf litter, maybe one or two will survive past their first winter. We expect the pups all to live. But, in reality, that is not natural. And nature has it's own birth control. Only the dominant male and his mate are allowed to breed.. They see to that. Overpopulation could be disastrous for all the pack members. On top of that, if there are food shortages or other environmental stress factors, a wolf bitch might not ovulate, go into estrus, or concieve. If she does concieve, she may reabsorb her litter. If her litter is born, she might kill and eat one or more. But, the point is that nature has it's own way to compensate for shortages and high mortality. Now, we take the same creature, domesticate it, give it the best diet and care and breed it.. then expect all the pups to survive!
Some breeders say that they have waiting lists. Frankly, I don't believe most of them. I have never known of a breeder who did not in fact get stuck with pups for awhile.
Since we have no controls and cannot predict down market cycles or limit supply, I think that it is safest to assume that you may have to hang onto approximately half of your litter for several months, and maybe one or two as long as a year. Plan for the worst, and hope for the best.. That's all you can do. But believe me, you are not alone. And the most common scenario is to get stuck with females.
by sheba on 30 July 2009 - 12:07
simple just get the dog fixed instead of breeding it cause if you can't find all the puppies good homes and if the shelter can't find them homes in a matter of times the puppies will be put to sleep if you have a good heart and love your dog stop breeding it.
by sheba on 30 July 2009 - 12:07
in my case cause i love german shepherd chances are if i had a female and she had puppies i would get rid of some and the ones that i couldn't sell i would keep and have them fixed fixed dogs are better dogs they get fat and don't take off when they go in heat if you don't choose o fix the dog and your not a good breeder then keep the dog on a leash
by TStrickland on 30 July 2009 - 13:07
Hey Wind Walker...great idea!! I know quite a few 4-H agents that would love to have that opportunity for some of their kids!!
T
T
by Krazy Bout K9s on 30 July 2009 - 17:07
Look at my post for the Valiandale Kennel female I just got in, I have so many REGISTERED GSD'S in right now, I dont' know what to do!!!!!!
This economy is bad, I think everyone should boycott/quit breeding for one year to see where we are headed and catch up some on the dogs that are already out there...
Steph
Montana GSD Rescue
by SitasMom on 30 July 2009 - 17:07
How was the dog able to bite a dozen of your closest friends?????? I can see maybe one or two, but a dozen. That is called irresponsible. Did the dog get loose at one of your "I hate Obama meetings" and bite everyone there?
should have put "half dozen"........
My husband and my closest friends just refused to believe me when I said the dog was unstable and dangerous.....
I completely agree it was irresponsible.........after the second bite, we sent it out for training. after the 4th bite we sent it out for behavior modification training after the 6 the bite we sent it out to die........
it bit my son in the face unprovoked..........i practicing the "its the dog or me, but someone's gotta go" speech on my way home from work - thankfully the dog was already gone .... these were bad times.
the dog was crazy, and so too were all of his litter mates........
should have put "half dozen"........
My husband and my closest friends just refused to believe me when I said the dog was unstable and dangerous.....
I completely agree it was irresponsible.........after the second bite, we sent it out for training. after the 4th bite we sent it out for behavior modification training after the 6 the bite we sent it out to die........
it bit my son in the face unprovoked..........i practicing the "its the dog or me, but someone's gotta go" speech on my way home from work - thankfully the dog was already gone .... these were bad times.
the dog was crazy, and so too were all of his litter mates........
by Sunsilver on 30 July 2009 - 18:07
Sorry, but I'm kinda pissed, especially by Sunsilver's comment:
Reputable breeders would sell the dogs cheaply as pets, or maybe have them PTS as a last resort.
What reputable breeder puts a healthy puppy to sleep??????? Am I just that naive or is this what your Shiloh Shepherd breeders do???? wtf! Wow, that is horrible. Please name 1 reputable breeder that would do this. Amazing what you think is reputable.
Slamdunc, I said AS A LAST RESORT. That means exactly what it says. This would be the sort of scenario where the breeder can't afford to feed the dogs he has, and is faced with either giving them away, having them PTS, or letting them starve to death.
Come to think of it, I should have included surrendering to a reputable rescue in the options... But yes, I fully agree, a breeder should be responsible for keeping the dog(s) as long as he/she can, and also taking back unwanted dogs from his clients.
As for being PTS, what do you think would happen if a high-drive working dog with a bit of civil defense got surrendered to a shelter these days?
Reputable breeders would sell the dogs cheaply as pets, or maybe have them PTS as a last resort.
What reputable breeder puts a healthy puppy to sleep??????? Am I just that naive or is this what your Shiloh Shepherd breeders do???? wtf! Wow, that is horrible. Please name 1 reputable breeder that would do this. Amazing what you think is reputable.
Slamdunc, I said AS A LAST RESORT. That means exactly what it says. This would be the sort of scenario where the breeder can't afford to feed the dogs he has, and is faced with either giving them away, having them PTS, or letting them starve to death.
Come to think of it, I should have included surrendering to a reputable rescue in the options... But yes, I fully agree, a breeder should be responsible for keeping the dog(s) as long as he/she can, and also taking back unwanted dogs from his clients.
As for being PTS, what do you think would happen if a high-drive working dog with a bit of civil defense got surrendered to a shelter these days?
by michael49 on 30 July 2009 - 18:07
krazy bout k9s Thank you for your post, and all the ones in the past. I'm not sure that people actually read them.if so they certainly don't take it to heart.You continiously try to tell these people that you are overwhelmed. Maybe they think that you are the only gsd rescue with this problem or maybe they just don't care, I vote for the latter. Reading these posts, it seems that alot of these breeders think that being a responsible breeder is just a matter of dumping there unsold pups on people like you,let someone else find them a home and pay for food,spay/neuter, vet bills,flea treatment,ect. untill YOU find them a home,after all thats your JOB. They're job was finished when they couldn't sell these pups or no longer wanted the pups or dogs.Seems to me that this makes them Responsible breeders in their opinion. I can't help but wonder what kind of life these dogs really live in the hands of these people.They all eat the best of food,enjoy the best health care,and have loving homes,yea right I believe every word of this. Maybe the breed needs to be renamed.GERMAN SHEPHERD DOLLARS Not directed at anyone in particular,but if the shoe fits wear it.
by Red Sable on 30 July 2009 - 18:07
Do these same responsible breeders breed again next season- after having a puppy pts because they can't find a home for it?
by michael49 on 30 July 2009 - 18:07
Sunsilver,
Same thing that happens to the high drive dogs that end up in pet families that have no idea how to deal with this type of dog .Not saying that you would do this,but alot of breeders sell the pups to anyone with the money. I don't know this to be a fact,but I think high drive working dogs sold like this will end up in a shelter or rescue maybe after they have been rehomed a few times. Pet breeders get bashed alot,but there are people that want this type of dog,just a laid back family companion. If everyone bred high drive working dogs I think there would be more dogs in shelters and rescues.Unless the pup is going to a working home,most people see a cute little pup, no idea whats coming down the road.I saw in your post,that you would place your pups in a working home only,good for you.However some breeders won't tell people what they are getting when they buy a working pup.If they explain what to expect from this pup it might cost them a sell.Sad but true.I don't agree with pts a healthy pup,I don't think there is a last resort,other then keeping that pup untill you find a home for it.My wife and I lost our jobs in early April,I still have my dogs.I watch my savings shrink daily,but this is my responsiblity to my dogs.It would break my heart, but when and if the time comes when I can no longer care for them,I will find Homes for them,but I would never pts them or dump them in a shelter or rescue.I know my dogs I feel like I am more qualified to find the right home for them then someone who barely knows them. Michael
Same thing that happens to the high drive dogs that end up in pet families that have no idea how to deal with this type of dog .Not saying that you would do this,but alot of breeders sell the pups to anyone with the money. I don't know this to be a fact,but I think high drive working dogs sold like this will end up in a shelter or rescue maybe after they have been rehomed a few times. Pet breeders get bashed alot,but there are people that want this type of dog,just a laid back family companion. If everyone bred high drive working dogs I think there would be more dogs in shelters and rescues.Unless the pup is going to a working home,most people see a cute little pup, no idea whats coming down the road.I saw in your post,that you would place your pups in a working home only,good for you.However some breeders won't tell people what they are getting when they buy a working pup.If they explain what to expect from this pup it might cost them a sell.Sad but true.I don't agree with pts a healthy pup,I don't think there is a last resort,other then keeping that pup untill you find a home for it.My wife and I lost our jobs in early April,I still have my dogs.I watch my savings shrink daily,but this is my responsiblity to my dogs.It would break my heart, but when and if the time comes when I can no longer care for them,I will find Homes for them,but I would never pts them or dump them in a shelter or rescue.I know my dogs I feel like I am more qualified to find the right home for them then someone who barely knows them. Michael
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