BBC Dropping Crufts?; tv documentary tonight - Page 7

Re who were the dogs shown on the program last night ?????

Some were named on another thread...but surprise surprise the thread has mysteriously disappeared...bullying tactics by owners once again ????????????????

Missbeeb i'll try to awnser your questions

Johan, have you heard of editing? Yes that's why i wrote "as shown"

I'm not keen on hocky dogs myself (I do have a dog that is very unsound and hocky, I suppose you'd have him disposed of) and I agree that many show dogs are unsuitable for Trialing etc, however, I believe that as the Shepherd that won at Crufts was the German Sieger he would have to be Sch111, does that not count?

No a schtz title can be obtained on a known field by a known decoy and a favorable judge + it is a repetitive routine. If the dog trails regularly on different fields etc it is another ballgame

I think Zamp is a beautiful example of the Breed as I suspect do most "Breed people",  I don't think he showed very well, from the little that I seen but Crufts is not Germany and I expect it was all very alien to him and his handler.

Most working dogs are less beautiful but they're not bred with beauty in mind are they? No they are bred with thier workability in mind Most are "terrier fronted" with little hind angulation and are generally rather square.  I doubt anyone is bothered about extra or missing teeth... as long as they can BITE!  wrong missing teeth aren't favorable for a good bite This is NOT the standard. agree

So... you breed for work only?  You can have a fabulous working mongrel. Have 3 mongrels at home and i've been asked a few times to breed them by showpeople (i refused because i find these dogs not suited for breeding )

I'm not a Schutzhund fan myself having always prefered Working Trials but surely Sch111 must count as work? see my second remarque

It's my belief that most dogs can and will work, with the right handler, it's no good always blaming the dog. 

Those shown, in my opinion, couldn't they missed the structural strenght to do so. Blaming it on age as one poster did is putting your head in the sand. Someone mentioned that these dogs were veterans and that this contributed to the lack of...

Here is a video of a "veteran" 8 year old Eriem (sorry other breed) ( the dog with the handler in blue) and his son http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/nvbk/video/x39zij_nvbk-1_sport He's one of the best around and is competing for the championship NVBK (favorit to be exact) He has still some years in him befor he retires and becomes a "pet"

We should work toge

Zamp Vom Thermodos was the Crufts winner.  I do not know the names of te other dogs shown... sorry.

Which dog was it that was supposedly so loose-ligamented? Was that Zamp?

I've said this for YEARS. The current version of the GSD looks and moves nothing like the GSD I grew up with. It started with the American dogs, and the emphasis on overangulation to produce a trotting stride as long as possible. Now, they are fit to do nothing but trot around a ring and look pretty, and from what I've seen, the German showline dogs are following right in their (overangulated) footsteps!  The German dogs have a different set of problems (the inflexible roach back being the main one) but I have seen some that have the exaggeratedly long upper thigh of the American dogs. I've also seen some so loose-ligamented that their whole hock hits the ground when trotting, and in front, the whole pastern does the same!

And you're saying these dogs are structurally SOUND??

Even people who know nothing about GSD's look at some of these dogs and ask, "What's wrong with that dog? Is it crippled?"

You know, there are times when I'm almost grateful there are so-called BYB's who breed their dogs, and don't show them (at least not in conformation) because some of them have made an effort to stay away from all these grossly exaggerated traits! When the show people wake up and realized the harm they've caused, at least there will be some of the old-style dogs around to provide fresh genetic material, and get things back on track!

To Judge a show dog on a few seconds of EDITED filming is just too ridiculous for words.

I do agree with that David, but you have to admit we do have a problem with  show-line GSDs having dreadful cow-hocks  

Johan, I'm not going to argue the point any further, mainly because my knowledge of Schutzhund is very limited.  However, it does nothing for Bancroft's case where he states that when showing, you are at the mercy of judges with their own agendas and hints at money/favours changing hands for tickets... and here you confirm it goes on in Schutzhund!!

What a fine mess...

 I don't think 7 or 8 is too old for a dog to compete and am very surprised that anyone would try to use that as an excuse for unsoundness.

Do you really have mongrels Johan?  Didn't someone mention Malinios?

I think we both know the truth Johan, a beautifully constructed dog with proven working ability is the ideal but most "show people" don't want to work their dogs and most "working people" don't want to show theirs.  So... never the twain shall meet?  What a pity!

when all is said and done if he poor breeding of a dog affects the ability to walk or live a normal life then we are breeding the wrong dogs!!!

i breed working line GSDs and have added a nice show line into the gene pool not to get "pretty dogs" but to improve on certain faults my bitch has. my dogs can go into any type of home be it Pet working agility or PAT because they are healthy and of sound temperament, that is what is important to me.

For those not from the UK you will find that ALL lines in the UK and no doubt other countries  (OZ, US, Germany etc.)have got their Health problems, whether it be English showlines and pet lines with Epilepsy, HC, OCD, HD,DM, etc. or WG lines with autoimmune conditions or even the police lines with uneven hips and heamangio. What breeders need to be is more honest with each other and work together to try and erradicate these conditions rather than become kennel blind and hide their heads in the sand, bring in the diversity use out crossing, more importantly only breed from dogs that you can honestly say are truely healthy with healthy sibblings and ancestors, look further back in the lines and make you you are not creating genetic bottlenecks in these lines, do not believe that just because a condition is off the pedigree it will not reappear.

Pam

Marge, Zamp was the dog at Crufts and he was handled by a lady, I think his owner actually.  Andrew C was the handler of another dog at another show with another judge, Carol Marsden I believe.  I do not know if it was Ice or not, sorry.

Oddly enough, I thought I had seen a posting from Videx saying that it was an excellent programme, then couldn't find it later... that's a wee bit naughty Mr Payne, have the courage of your convictions man!