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by L Wooldridge on 08 January 2011 - 04:01
Jenni78,
You talk so much about letting Mother Nature decide, yet you provide your bitch a whelping box. You provide her with heat lamps? An area out of draft, indoors? Or do you let Mother Nature truely take care of a bitch and her whelps and let her free whelp in a location the bitch chose, outside? If not, then YOU are indeed helping make choices by keeping those whelps in an almost disease free environment, a warm ground to crawl on and so on....you intervene more than you give yourself credit for.
Not that it's wrong. It's your choice, one you're free to make, just like those that feel they're being responsible by culling.
You talk so much about letting Mother Nature decide, yet you provide your bitch a whelping box. You provide her with heat lamps? An area out of draft, indoors? Or do you let Mother Nature truely take care of a bitch and her whelps and let her free whelp in a location the bitch chose, outside? If not, then YOU are indeed helping make choices by keeping those whelps in an almost disease free environment, a warm ground to crawl on and so on....you intervene more than you give yourself credit for.
Not that it's wrong. It's your choice, one you're free to make, just like those that feel they're being responsible by culling.
by Jenni78 on 08 January 2011 - 04:01
I use the term box rather loosely. My point was sometimes they wander, and come back. How do they deserve to die if they "know enough" to come back? THAT was my point. Just for your knowledge, the only time my bitch whelped inside was when I was bedridden with preeclampsia. I needed to have her inside with me, for obvious reasons. I draw the line at forcing her to go hunting for all her meals, and the neighbors frown upon it. Otherwise, she can whelp wherever she damn well chooses. What do I care?
I see you are very well-informed about my breeding practices, LOL. Heat lamps and warm ground and disease-free environment, oh my! Yep; that's me. Don't forget latex gloves and a scale and little color-coded neckbands and water bottles and syringe feeding.
My point is really being driven home, the more posts we have on this thread. Unless people are going to do things 100% naturally, then no, they don't have the right to cull for what they feel is incorrect. I would be willing to bet many of you are killing some of the best pups through your ignorance.
And for the intelligent, critical thinkers in this thread, no, of course I don't have a problem culling for good reasons when necessary; but how much less often would it be necessary if we let nature take its course for long enough to select against these problems in the way it's supposed to be?
This thread has run its course, IMHO. I'm about done with it. On both forums.
I see you are very well-informed about my breeding practices, LOL. Heat lamps and warm ground and disease-free environment, oh my! Yep; that's me. Don't forget latex gloves and a scale and little color-coded neckbands and water bottles and syringe feeding.
My point is really being driven home, the more posts we have on this thread. Unless people are going to do things 100% naturally, then no, they don't have the right to cull for what they feel is incorrect. I would be willing to bet many of you are killing some of the best pups through your ignorance.
And for the intelligent, critical thinkers in this thread, no, of course I don't have a problem culling for good reasons when necessary; but how much less often would it be necessary if we let nature take its course for long enough to select against these problems in the way it's supposed to be?
This thread has run its course, IMHO. I'm about done with it. On both forums.
by Pirates Lair on 08 January 2011 - 04:01
by L Wooldridge on 08 January 2011 - 04:01
"Unless people are going to do things 100% naturally, then no, they don't have the right to cull for what they feel is incorrect. I would be willing to bet many of you are killing some of the best pups through your ignorance."
We breed to what we feel is correct/incorrect.....why not whelp in accordence with such guidelines?
We breed to what we feel is correct/incorrect.....why not whelp in accordence with such guidelines?
by steve1 on 08 January 2011 - 09:01
Most know that i have never bred Dogs but other animals and Birds.
if anything cannot feed from its mother as nature intended it to then leave it alone. Do not help it in any way, hard it may be but let me say this
If you hand feed that Pup or Pups to keep them alive then you will pass on a weak Pup to an unsuspecting owner and that is not right
Anything with a weakness must pass on the normal way or the mother will do it Nothing should be reared if it is weak
Steve1
if anything cannot feed from its mother as nature intended it to then leave it alone. Do not help it in any way, hard it may be but let me say this
If you hand feed that Pup or Pups to keep them alive then you will pass on a weak Pup to an unsuspecting owner and that is not right
Anything with a weakness must pass on the normal way or the mother will do it Nothing should be reared if it is weak
Steve1
by duke1965 on 08 January 2011 - 09:01
steve , I agree with you100% on this one
if it cant survive on its own , its not strong enough
if it cant survive on its own , its not strong enough
by Prager on 08 January 2011 - 11:01
There was forced culling in Czech some time ago. First 6 pups was max, then 8 pups was max. Officially pups should be killed. But most breeders just gave them away without papers. Now there is no limit.
As far as my believes are, I believe in common sense and natural culling. If the pup is weak, I let it die if he can not live on its own. No heroic efforts to save the pup. If the pup is week, or in any way improper and lives I do not sell it to anyone who wants to breed.
If the pup would be seriously deformed ( something obviously life threateningly major) I would kill it as soon as I would recognize it which would be I hope within 3 days. I have never had to do it but I would. Later on, call me chicken, I can not do it unless it would be some bizarre life limiting problem. If the pup has some minor deformity , I would sell such pup for less ( softer ears, malformed or shorter tail missing testicle) or just usually give it away (heart murmur).I always inform the client of the problem and its consequences and such pups are sold or given away without papers. This does not happen much fortunately.
Number of pups.
I have female who had mastitis and she lost 3 of her nipples to mastitis. After that she has had litter of 9 with no nursing problem. I also have a female and she had a litter of 13. They all end up perfect pups. I think that the number of pups is hard on some females only during the birth. We can not do anything about that. After that, the nursing of large litters, is never a problem for the bitch. As a matter of fact I believe that it increases vigorousness of the pups and if they are weak and die than that is OK natural culling of weaker pups. I never help pups to nurse or to stay in the group in th e middle of the area as they should.
When someone states that they want to breed, and I always ask, then I always recommend them the strongest, most vigorous pups to such person. I do not recommend such pup to a 82 year old lady with walker. To her I recommend a les driven pup,....that is if she is not a breeder:). Recently I have talked to a older breeder. Gentleman was 92 years old. I believe all pups are pick of the litter for someone, but bred should be only the best pups only. Sometimes all pups are the "best' and sometimes none.
All this require common sense, discipline, responsibility and little knowledge.
Here you go, common sense natural culling.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
As far as my believes are, I believe in common sense and natural culling. If the pup is weak, I let it die if he can not live on its own. No heroic efforts to save the pup. If the pup is week, or in any way improper and lives I do not sell it to anyone who wants to breed.
If the pup would be seriously deformed ( something obviously life threateningly major) I would kill it as soon as I would recognize it which would be I hope within 3 days. I have never had to do it but I would. Later on, call me chicken, I can not do it unless it would be some bizarre life limiting problem. If the pup has some minor deformity , I would sell such pup for less ( softer ears, malformed or shorter tail missing testicle) or just usually give it away (heart murmur).I always inform the client of the problem and its consequences and such pups are sold or given away without papers. This does not happen much fortunately.
Number of pups.
I have female who had mastitis and she lost 3 of her nipples to mastitis. After that she has had litter of 9 with no nursing problem. I also have a female and she had a litter of 13. They all end up perfect pups. I think that the number of pups is hard on some females only during the birth. We can not do anything about that. After that, the nursing of large litters, is never a problem for the bitch. As a matter of fact I believe that it increases vigorousness of the pups and if they are weak and die than that is OK natural culling of weaker pups. I never help pups to nurse or to stay in the group in th e middle of the area as they should.
When someone states that they want to breed, and I always ask, then I always recommend them the strongest, most vigorous pups to such person. I do not recommend such pup to a 82 year old lady with walker. To her I recommend a les driven pup,....that is if she is not a breeder:). Recently I have talked to a older breeder. Gentleman was 92 years old. I believe all pups are pick of the litter for someone, but bred should be only the best pups only. Sometimes all pups are the "best' and sometimes none.
All this require common sense, discipline, responsibility and little knowledge.
Here you go, common sense natural culling.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
by SportySchGuy on 08 January 2011 - 13:01
"I would be willing to bet many of you are killing some of the best pups through your ignorance. "
Agree 100%! Agree with Hans too....more or less.
Heat lamps!!!!!!!!
by duke1965 on 08 January 2011 - 13:01
if they cant make it on their own , they NEVER can be the best pups
by eichenluft on 08 January 2011 - 13:01
and I maintain - if there is something wrong with them so much that they cannot get enough nutrition on their own, are weak enough to not be thriving/not nursing on their own properly, then normally there is nothing you (the human) can do to save that pup - no matter if you tube-feed, clean it, warm it, give it supplements - nothing at all you can do. You can try, you can spend 3 days and nights trying to save it - but in the end the puppy that has any significant problem will die no matter what. so though I don't "leave the pups alone" completely - I am very vigilant and check the litter often for the first few days - if it's a large litter yes I will make sure all the puppies are getting their time on the nipple - I will not be feeding or supplementing or cleaning puppies though - just supervising. And if a puppy wanders off, it may be because they are in a warm room and don't need to "cuddle" in the natural warmth of each other and the mother - if they get stuck behind the mother, or under a towel - of course I will help them back. A little later, if one gets out of the whelp box and can't get back in - of course I will help it back in. And then I will take note of which pup was the first one to escape the whelp box - could be the best pup in the end! LOL
molly
molly
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molly
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