Has dog training actually improved. - Page 7

gsdstudent, 
Excellent post!

slam,
Still fighting the good fight eh? 

Let's clarify a couple of things;  Hans you wrote:

 1.As we all know or should know, the results do not justify the  means. 
   Brain of just about any creature is most afraid of lack of oxygen and electric shock. Everything else in dog's life is put on back burner when electric shock is delivered or potentially can be delivered. Nothing else matter.   Nada.

Ok, so according to this a choke collar should never be put on any dog. Because nothing would matter to a dog once it is deprived of oxygen?  I would say this goes against the principle of oppositional reflex which is also employed by skilled trainers.   Any one that has been involved with sport or working dogs has at one time or another seen a choke collar used and a dog deprived of oxygen.  I'm not recommending this but have seen enough dogs recover instantly with no lasting affects or a "fear" of the slip or choke collar.  Next E Collars; low level stimulation can be used to increase drive and increase a behavior.  I suppose that would be in direct conflict with everything else in a dog's life being put on the back burner?  Since an e collar can be used by a skilled person to increase drive I don't think the dog has such a severe aversion to it as Hans describes.   

E collar is capable to deliver 10 000 Volts +/-. Comparatively  stun gun delivers upwards of 50 000 V. There is minimal amperage delivered, thus there is usually no physical damage or effect to speak of. However psychological effect is superbly and - extremely high. The highest possible effect delivered by mechanical means that is.  Yes  I know the argument,  that trainers do not use highest level on their shock collar. However please keep in mind that even very mild level electric stimulus as it is called by users of such device,  is to be avoided at all cost by any organism.  

This has not been my experience at all.  I place an ecollar on my dog every day and have never had any undesirable effects or my dog being less driven or happy in his work.  Let's compare a stun gun or "TASER" to an E Collar.  It is not really a fair comparison as a Taser is designed to incapacitate a person and a ECollar is not.  A Taser basically "jams" the central nervous system and disrupts brain waves.  The Taser disrupts normal nerve signals and affects neuromuscular control.  I have been "Tased" in training and it is not fun and very incapacitating.  An Ecollar will simply not do this and can do it by design, how ever an E Collar can cause discomfort.  To give an analogy to kind of compare the two think of an Ecollar as garden hose turned on and you put your finger over the open end causing a stream of water.  Now, the flow out of the hose will have pressure because the end is restricted.  Imagine some one sprays you in the face with this hose; you will feel some discomfort if you are hit in the eye but no damage.  The Taser would be the equivalent of some one spraying you with a fire hose, the pressure would be similar but the volume or flow of water through he 3" hose would be many times greater.  The fire hose would knock you over and could possibly damage your eyes.  It's not the best analogy as the two devices are designed to function differently but the concept is the same.

Try to lick a 9 V battery and see how many times you will be willing to submit your self to that mild stimulus.  

Licking a 9V battery is really a minimal stim and I could do that all day.  I have tested my E collar and on low it is very similar to licking a 9V battery.  No discomfort, just a reminder.  

Thus yes, electric shock ( or stimulus ) AT ANY LEVEL is very-most effective stimulus we know in order to coerce desired behavior  in one way or another, from any creature. Non is better, stronger, more powerful. None.  

I would disagree,  a prong or choke can be stronger and more devastating it depends on the animal and it's reaction.

That is why it is used and  dogs perform superbly well if trained with use of e collars. I would:) . Nobody can dispute that.  

TRUE!  A dog can be superbly well trained with an Ecollar or a variety of other tools by a skilled trainer.  

There are also other issues of using e collars besides the brain's total absorption with avoidance of e shocks or even minld stimulus. Namely  the association between the highest shock delivered accidently or intentionally with even mildest of  "stimulus" - as it is often called.  Such an association is very strong and often severe and it is permanent. Thus dog getting even mildest stimulus associates it then with severe 10 000 V shock if he/she ever got it before. I would venture to say that if not all then most dogs trained with e collar were subject to very high shock at one time or another.  

My dog has never shown avoidance to the E collar or stopped working or even come out of drive.  He has never even been "squashed" in his temperament.  "Mild" stim has never been an issue and the dog does not have any association to a higher level correction.  My dog has also worn a prong and been corrected on that collar, he does not associate a "pop" with a hard correction.  

    2.   I ask if you  use  this device or any other device for that matter  better, are you for that reason more capable more skilled trainer? Is your training better? Not necessarily. Yes you will get better results but are  you better trainer and is your training skill better?  Lets not confuse cause and effect here.  

If you get better results I would say you are a better trainer.  If you are smart enough to seek out new training techniques that enhance your training, well yes you are a better trainer.  

We are talking about improvement of dog training and not about improvement of results of dog training based on some device - any device.  Just because people  who compete for high sums of money or for  victory in high level competition use it,does not mean that they are more skilled.

Yes, they are more skilled and better trainers to compete at that level.  Sometimes technology improves and our ability improves along with it.  There are smart trainers that see the improvements and enhance their training and their results are even better.  You use a lot of analogies about cars and airplanes, but the fact of the matter is improvements in technology have made cars safer and air travel safer and faster as well.  I still disagree with you and I just wanted to clarify a few concepts for those who may be reading.  I would hate some one to get the wrong idea about clickers or E Collars or trainers that use them to get enhanced results and superior working dogs.  They are not only used by "sport" dog trainers, but real world working dog trainers that expect a certain level of excellence from their dogs.  

Hired dog,
I do agree. I can only hope that some one who is trying to learn about E Collars can see both sides and get the benefit of another opinion.  Or an alternative point of view.  If that happens then it isn't a waste of time.

OGBS,
Excellent post.

Never used e-collars and don't intend to either. I am personally a very old-fashioned fellow.  However, I freely admit that I am not training dogs for the highest levels of competition or anywhere close to that, and in those kinds of venues, an e-collar may be a useful tool, in the right set of trained hands.   

Also, about Slam's earlier post about the paycheck (lures like food, ball etc) versus praise etc., I agree totally.  The caveat here is that all of my dogs were raised from puppyhood by me......hours and hours and hours of conditioning, which I can indulge in, since all of my dog handling is done, 1 dog at any one point in time, till the puppy grows up, which of course is not possible for a professional handler who handles dozens of dogs during the same time-frame.   I have the luxury of having ALL of my free hours to indulge in the handling/conditioning of that one puppy, till he grows up.

Conditioning in my case starts right from the time where they were really young ones, and I would grab their muzzle with a "no" (when he/she does something not agreeable) and their being conditioned to treating a "no" from me as something absolutely unpleasant (which is retained right into adulthood) and praise (from me) as something they look really forward to.....the praise IS the "paycheck".  The physical hurt from the pop with a "NO" is probably minimal, but it is the conditioning from puppyhood that makes it work....hope that makes sense.  My latest guy (the Bi-color GSD in my signature) is a VERY dominant dog and as soon as he hears the "NO", he looks and acknowledges, and a couple of repetitions later, he complies and internalizes......does not need hard a harder correction, when I do it (his pain tolerance is very high genetically, and thus the physical hurt from the leash pop means nothing, but he complies because of the relationship/bonding we have). 

Jim,
Once again, a great post.
I am glad you have the patience and took the time to explain this.
Excellent quotes from you:
"If you get better results I would say you are a better trainer. If you are smart enough to seek out new training techniques that enhance your training, well yes you are a better trainer."

"Sometimes technology improves and our ability improves along with it.  There are smart trainers that see the improvements and enhance their training and their results are even better."

The other thing that I would like to point out about the 10,000 volts emitted from an electric collar.
If you are wearing nylon clothes (like a windbreaker) in your car with a relative humidity of approximately 50%, the static charge that builds up as a result of the friction between the nylon and the car seat is 21,000 volts. Scuffing your feet across carpet can build up a static charge in your body of way over 25,000 volts. (How many times did many of us do this as a child?)
These numbers mean nothing because the amperage is so minute.

Aaykay,
I am not trying to put you down in any way when I say this, but, what you are talking about is a pet dog and pet dog training. Your verbal praise and "no" will work for pet dogs, but, not for working dogs or competition dogs. Don't get me wrong, verbal praise and corrections are used effectively, but, they are not enough. Working or competition dogs need more, especially if they are to have any longevity in their respective venue.
Also, I would like to know why you feel your dog is dominant? What is the frame of reference? Dominant with other dogs? Dominant with other humans? Dominant with you? Do you ever put any pressure on your dog or frustrate him in any way?
Those are two real good ways to find out how dominant he is. This does not mean you have to do something bad to your dog. Pressure and frustration are common aspects of training working and competition dogs.

OGBS wrote:

Pressure and frustration are common aspects of training working and competition dogs.

Exactly! Bingo! We use pressure to build drive in stronger dogs, as well as frustration.
And it applies to both actual Police K9's and schutzhund dogs. Someone wrote they had
seen dogs trained with compulsion that looked happy, and dogs trained with toys look 
stressed etc (Slam or Gustav?).  A GOOD trainer will adapt their methods to use with
each and every dog. No two dogs will work exactly the same, even littermates will need
different training methods. Companion dog training can be done with clickers, cans of
spray cheese, soothing music, sandwiches, whatever! But, the only way the training will
become reliable is if compulsion is introduced so that the dog understands there is a 
direct consequence for not obeying. Of course, this is only introduced after the dog actually
understands what you want of it.  Dog training has improved alot over the years, not always
to the betterment of the breed, but overall, the methods and equipment has evolved over 
time to allow us more variety in how we get our dogs from A to Z.  A truly good trainer will
admit there are many many roads to take to get to the destination, it is the good trainer
that will pick the road that works best with that dog to get there!

Slam, your post was excellent and very well written, but I agree with Hired Dog, you 
cannot get through to a brick wall when it's been put up. E collars have their place in
training, not for everyone obviously, but if one ever gets a chance to see an ecollar in
use by someone with the true skill to use it, you won't even know it's on the dog.
And Slam is dead right, if someone is going to be abusive with an ecollar, they have 
likely already run out of other brute force methods that obviously didn't work, so are
now hoping the ecollar will be the saving grace. It never is in those cases. 

Here is a newsflash for those that don't get it, the foundation you put on your dog is
what the dog will always go 'back' to for help at times of stress-stress can be good or bad btw.
If the foundation is not solid, the handler took shortcuts etc, it will show when the pressure is
increased on the dog. Dogs don't ever lie, people do, but dogs don't. I can sit back and watch 
you work with your dog and be able to tell if you have taken shortcuts, or been hard etc on the
dog, as can most that have expressed an understanding of using 'what works' for each and 
every different dog. 

Until someone has trained a dog to do more than sit on command , come to heel, etc in 
their backyard, they won't truly understand the need to utilize both positive and negative
in training. In some cases, someones life can be on the line so it is imperative the dog
understand both the command and that it is not an optional request, it's just that, a 
command. If you use a ball, hotdogs, your voice, a clicker or an ecollar to get there, 
as long as it works with that dog, it doesn't matter how you got there, as long as you 
did it in a humane manner. And let's not kid ourselves, most of us have seen people
be abusive with a simple flat collar, so don't blame equipment for abuse, blame the 
two legged jackass on the end of the leash.

Some excellent posts on this thread, it certainly is enlightening to see the myths and 
lack of understanding some have of equipment and it's proper uses.




 

You know, this brings to mind some sage words a younger but much 
more experienced dog trainer I know of says about various dog training methods;

"If you cannot use your method in a public setting such a shopping mall etc 
for fear of someone turning you in for abuse, perhaps you need to take a good
hard look at your chosen methods of training and see if there is a better way"

Workingdogz...The general public thinks of a prong as a midevil torture device, an E collar as the epitome of cruelty, the simple pop on a leash as you killing the dog, so, while I understand what you mean and I agree with it, we are at a point and time when demanding simple compliance from our dogs is seen as bad.
The AKC will not allow any prong collars or E collars on any of its venue grounds, that means you dont have to participate, merely visiting the event with a dog on a prong is not allowed. Some of us who use E collars are now using the Chameleon which looks like a flat leather collar and a "blue tooth" ring on the finger.
As sad as it is, I believe this is the way of the future.