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by Schznd on 03 February 2014 - 18:02
"Take your IPO dog for a walk using focused heeling for three miles and see how that works versus loose lead heeling for the same distance. Likewise take your IPO dog using focused heeling through a busy pedestrian street in Germany with many pedestrians and other dogs for a few hundred meters and see how stupid and useless the current "focused heeling" is in a real life situation"
Never cease to amaze, again, complete misunderstanding of the sport, the work, the judging and the intent of the exercise, because you don't title or compete in the dog sport. You just bloviate about something you know nothing about.
Never cease to amaze, again, complete misunderstanding of the sport, the work, the judging and the intent of the exercise, because you don't title or compete in the dog sport. You just bloviate about something you know nothing about.
by Blitzen on 03 February 2014 - 18:02
Gotcha, Unknown. I wasn't sure we were on the same page. A few years ago one of the better known trainers in this area was actually tripped and fell when his dog went between his legs while fussing the IPO3 OB phase. The dog passed. I'm not sure if it would have passed at an AKC OB trial or not. I guess that was the ultimate demonstration of the result of crowding the handler LOL.
by susie on 03 February 2014 - 19:02
Unknown: " Attention to the handler" - what does this mean for you?
For me ( and for almost every judge I ever met on a "normal" trial ) it´s a dog walking accordingly to the rules ( happy, close to the left knee, following every sideturn fast and willing ).
Without "attention" this is not possible.
For me ( and for almost every judge I ever met on a "normal" trial ) it´s a dog walking accordingly to the rules ( happy, close to the left knee, following every sideturn fast and willing ).
Without "attention" this is not possible.
by Unknown on 03 February 2014 - 19:02
Susie
What "Attention to the handler" means to me is what it says in the rule book and what is explained to us at the FCI Judges meeting.
"Required concentration must be displayed towards the handler"... This is not walking next to the handler looking around and paying enough attention to not miss a turn.....
From FCI Ruls:
Page 53
During all exercises a happy work ethic and the required concentration must be displayed towards the
handler. Attention must be paid to the happy work ethic in conjunction with the correct execution of the
work and will be evaluated as such.
Page 54
From a straight basic
position, the dog is to follow the handler (HF) at the “heel” command in an attentive, happy and straight
manner with his shoulder blade at knee height and to the left of the handler (HF) and sits straight,
independently and quickly at the halt.
What "Attention to the handler" means to me is what it says in the rule book and what is explained to us at the FCI Judges meeting.
"Required concentration must be displayed towards the handler"... This is not walking next to the handler looking around and paying enough attention to not miss a turn.....
From FCI Ruls:
Page 53
During all exercises a happy work ethic and the required concentration must be displayed towards the
handler. Attention must be paid to the happy work ethic in conjunction with the correct execution of the
work and will be evaluated as such.
Page 54
From a straight basic
position, the dog is to follow the handler (HF) at the “heel” command in an attentive, happy and straight
manner with his shoulder blade at knee height and to the left of the handler (HF) and sits straight,
independently and quickly at the halt.
by susie on 03 February 2014 - 19:02
" Attentive " doesn´t mean " looking like strangulated "...
The words didn´t change, only the performance, and, at least in Germany, only at higher levels.
But why do we argue? Even IF Smiley would loose one or two points, the dog won´t fail because of "heeling".
The words didn´t change, only the performance, and, at least in Germany, only at higher levels.
But why do we argue? Even IF Smiley would loose one or two points, the dog won´t fail because of "heeling".
by Unknown on 03 February 2014 - 20:02
OK we agree about the points....But to me you are ignoring the "required concentration must be displayed towards the handler"
If the dog is looking around, it is not displaying concentration towards the handler.....
And this is what is being instructed by the FCI working commision at the FCI Judges meeting....
And maybe the interpretation in Germany is different. Not an arguement, just a disagreement....But we agree on the important part, she will not fail.... :-)
If the dog is looking around, it is not displaying concentration towards the handler.....
And this is what is being instructed by the FCI working commision at the FCI Judges meeting....
And maybe the interpretation in Germany is different. Not an arguement, just a disagreement....But we agree on the important part, she will not fail.... :-)
by susie on 03 February 2014 - 21:02
Peace...
by Hundmutter on 03 February 2014 - 21:02
At what point in this discussion did "dog looking where it is going"
morph into "dog looking all round it, and losing concentration" ?
Surely the issue is about when the dog heels with its head turned
in toward the handler constantly, gazing up into the handler's face
[in case some wordless, facial signal is given to help the dog with turns ?]
This is what we constantly see in the whole variety of Obedience rings
nowadays; and 9 times out of ten it also results in a degree of 'leaning
on', ie dog wrapping itself around the handler's leg, to greater or lesser
extent. This is ungainly and ugly, when it is at its worst, and yet judges
today seem more likely to drop points for not doing it. I can still remember
back when the very opposite used to be true. I hate working dogs that do
this too much, I just feel they are going to trip me up, and/or walk into a lamp
post ! (Not that there are too many obstacles on a sports field, but if a
heelwork pattern is set a little too close to a blind or the fence ...).
Bubba, there is such a thing as teaching your dog to do two sorts of heelwork:
competition (for short bursts of tight heeling) and loose lead work for the streets.
morph into "dog looking all round it, and losing concentration" ?
Surely the issue is about when the dog heels with its head turned
in toward the handler constantly, gazing up into the handler's face
[in case some wordless, facial signal is given to help the dog with turns ?]
This is what we constantly see in the whole variety of Obedience rings
nowadays; and 9 times out of ten it also results in a degree of 'leaning
on', ie dog wrapping itself around the handler's leg, to greater or lesser
extent. This is ungainly and ugly, when it is at its worst, and yet judges
today seem more likely to drop points for not doing it. I can still remember
back when the very opposite used to be true. I hate working dogs that do
this too much, I just feel they are going to trip me up, and/or walk into a lamp
post ! (Not that there are too many obstacles on a sports field, but if a
heelwork pattern is set a little too close to a blind or the fence ...).
Bubba, there is such a thing as teaching your dog to do two sorts of heelwork:
competition (for short bursts of tight heeling) and loose lead work for the streets.
by bubbabooboo on 03 February 2014 - 23:02
As the proponents of so called "working line" GSD like to chant in unison as a mantra of their cult .. "function over appearance". What part of the current version of focused heeling has anything to do with the function of heeling in everyday life?? It couldn't be that focused heeling is all about appearance and scoring points for style and not about actual function could it?? The show line GSD is called garbage because it sometimes chooses beauty and appearance over physical strength or durability while IPO uses as "perfect" a form of heeling used to determine breed worthiness that is all about appearance and has nothing to do with useful heeling for everyday life. Is there a possibility that the IPO system of titles is really more about detail and appearances than about actual physical or mental strength and endurance of the dog?? One might also question whether an IPO trial system that relies on identical exercises done in the same order each time is the best choice for selecting dogs with resilient and intelligent minds capable of making choices and reacting to everyday situations. Pattern training and repetition can hide a variety of mental faults in an IPO dog that would be exposed in a Ring Sport dog or even a family pet.
by Mike D on 03 February 2014 - 23:02
Bubba,
"How does the dog know he is getting his nose into each footstep?"
The question I asked earlier in this thread that you didn't educate me on.
Please, help me with one topic at a time.
Mike
"How does the dog know he is getting his nose into each footstep?"
The question I asked earlier in this thread that you didn't educate me on.
Please, help me with one topic at a time.
Mike
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