Boban vom grauen Monstab - Page 7

Quote:Here is a link to the other discussion board about Boban. Most of the people on that board know of Boban first hand through his original owner. The second owner is July Marlow from vom Banach k9. http://www.ddrlegends.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1599" I went and read the above link. It says in one post that Boban 'tore up' his second owner, now here the "second Owner" is said to have been Julie Marlow. To my knowledge Julie is his second owner, however Boban never bit Julie or 'tore her up'!! --Just thought I'd clarify the facts.

DDR-DSH There is way to much written here for me to read all of this tonight. But just to defend my " don't throw out the baby with the bath water" is in part becaue I don't know if we have all the facts concerning Boban. I wanted to have a look at this dog out of his kennel. I wanted to see what he was about. Because someone calls him handler aggressive, could it be in part do to fear on the handlers part, or the handlers fear for example.I am not implying this about his owner. It is just another way of looking at what might be percieved as "handler aggressive". I do not doubt this dog was handler aggressive, I just felt in another arena he might do fine. There is a ton of information we do not have and until a nuetral party with experience in these matters has a chance to look the dog over and do some testing it is impossible to determine the extent of the aggression. Way too much heresay on this board as I know you know. I appreciate your comments and this is not meant to take away from them, just add to another dimension to the subject. Tomorrow I will try to get caught up on reading, so if I have spoken of something covered then forgive me. Thanks

Here is 4 video of Boban working in protection work with his old handler / owner , Take a look at how the dog works and then make up your own mined about this dog . To me he is just a ok dog and I think his handler was not the right person for this dog . This dog is not what people have made him be and is not all that , is is just ok ! Take a look http://polizei-grenzschutzhund.com/VideoPage.html

We All Must remember thart most trainers and handlers only have specific ways of dealing with dogs they assume all the dogs are general and only have but one way of handling and training forgetting each canine like human beings are all different and each one needs to be worked with differently,i continuosly get or work with extremely hard dogs and there is more then one way to skin a cat. yes you have the old choking method string him up till his eyes roll into the back of his head when he shows this type of aggression and as he comes through your the one there petting and praising his calmness so now your the new god in his eyes . another good way is to dry the dog out limited to no food until the questioning phase of pack order is established usually goog with the hard ass dont give a crap about nobody dogs but it gets them thinking if i dont eat i cant survive this guy feeds me he must of made the kill now hes offering to me food ohh he must be the guy incharge here this routine i have seen take a good 3-4 days just watering the dog up and vitamins to make sure he could sustain, there is also the tight tether option only if you have a good pair of scratch pants and the "balls" to do so is on a 18 inch tether keep the dog with you at all times never to exceed these 18 inches you move he moves you get up he gets up you got to bathroom he follows with you this works good with drying them out then sometimes to the choking out phase the dog learns that you are in charge of everything in its life the dog sleeps next to you walks when you walk the dog has no options but to olet you start thinking for it and then they relize without you i am nothing i have tried with great success al of these methods and there are many more methods for one to use so because he didnt pass his breed survey doesnt me this issue can not be controlled enough to eventually get him to pass it he is and was a young dog while going through this there is still hope for him and just because a judge cant grab his face and check his teeth doesnt make him bad either think of the dog as a policeman and his muzzle is his gun and you are what he is protecting you someone grabs his muzzle( his only true weapon) and the dog lunges well if you were a cop would you like just anyone coming up and grabbing your gun. what i am trying to say to train a dog is to understand there psyci what are they doing and WHY? he doesnt sound like a vicious dog but and extremist overlly confident fellow that my need to speak with god a few times to relize who where and what is going on. Steve

Haus Simpkins Thank you for your post. I have always viewed trianers in two ways. Those that have learned the methods to achieve their goal, the formulas and the many combinations to reach their goal with a variety of temperments. Then there are trainers that learn to understand the DOG!!!!!!!!! The first type will run into problems when the PROOVEN METHOD does not work because the number of various components that make up who a dog is, is INFINATE. There are no two identical dogs. One must KNOW the dog they are working with and leave all the preconcieved ideas and METODS at the door. We must be smarter then the dog. The only way this happens is when I realize I need to read this dogs eyes and body, why is he doing what he is doing. The combinations of reasons are as I said are infinite. The handler, previous trainning, experiences, surroundings, what side of the dog house he woke up on, and on and on and on. Some issues are pretty basic, but to judge a dog incorrigible, or only one way of dealing with this issue limits us from being of any use to the dog. How often do we read or hear a dog has done this or that and then lable this dog a bum or a hero based on our thought processes rather then the dogs. This I believe is the key to being a good trainer. Being humble enough to recognize that I need to learn from the dog first. Thanks again for your post. And I fully agree, I did not see this in Boban that every one else has seen. Just a dog that needed someone to grasp his reasoning and go from there. I will say I would have taken this dog in a heartbeat. Not to say that I would have turned him into something he is not but to give him the chance to be all he can be. Thanks

Hello, all, once again! Steve, you are really amazing! I don't think that I have EVER seen any writing so long and so seldom punctuated. I am just making a light-hearted jest, not a put-down, so please don't take it that way. I have a friend who does the same thing. His emails are like a "string of consciousness" sort of flow. I have heard that this is a habit of some Native American people, and as a matter of fact he is Lumbee Cherokee. Anyway, Steve, you made a comment about the mouth being to a dog what a gun is to a policeman. I will take that a step further... The mouth is to the dog a sort of all-purpose feature of the anatomy, and one of the things that it is to the dog is A HAND!! Think about it.. Dogs have NO other way to grasp anything as we do. Not only do they not have any opposable thumbs, but they have no moveable fingers. Someone pointed out the same thing to me once about parrots. What constitutes a "bite" to some people might really be a friendly or exploratory grasp. Personally, I like a lot of types of dogs, each for different reasons and purposes, and I believe that there is a theoretical perfect home and lifestyle for every dog. We may not be able to connect with it, but it could be there, if we could find it. I am a big believer in proper matchmaking when placing dogs. There is no absolute formula or chart for that, but an intuitive person who knows dogs and people very well can do it, in most cases. A "shit" dog to one person is a treasured life-long buddy for someone else. My Ufo would have been a perfect dog for me if I was guarding a very dangerous outpost all alone, maybe in a war-zone, and wanted a dog that would kill any intruder, no questions asked. In that situation, a dog like this might be invaluable. But he would still require an absolutely expert handler who was almost glued to him, as Steve said, eating and sleeping together. No off-time of his own, and very frequent obedience training sessions to reinforce authority in a ritualized manner such as the canine kind do! I have to tell you a funny little anecdote about my Ufy-poo! After I had him subdued and muzzled, and I was initially handling him.. two or three times only, he made experimental growls with me, to see if he could get away with it. I had a good-sized chunk of hardwood broom handle in my pocket for just such an occasion, and when I heard that, it came out immediately to give him a very sharp, HARD crack across the muzzle! No warning, just WHACK!!! Each time he did it, the growl was softer. The last time it was almost inaudible... But I have good ears, and I heard it! WHACK!!! If dogs could cry, it would have brought tears to his eyes. That broomhandle section had been used once on him to ride him to the ground, with him between my knees and the broomhandle passed under his collar and twisted like a tourniquette. I was willing to do it, again, if needed, but I never needed to. Just as hard as I was with him, I was extremely gentle, kind and thoughtful towards him when he was good. It didn't take him long to figure out that he should behave with me. He was the most obedient of dogs, after that. But only with me. He did try to challenge my daughter, once, but a shout from me immediately stopped it. He really gave me that, "Oh, Shit!..What did I do"? look. LOL The dog was very intelligent, and predictable, but ONLY if you understood what you were dealing with and laid down the law real hard. I just wish you all could have heard his last, pathetic attempt at assertiveness, his "tiny" growl. It was almost cute!

Preston, in answer to your question: Yes.. Ufo was a very handsome dog. But he was in very ill health when I got him and had some obviously chronic ideopathic (unknown cause) symptoms, such as a nasal infection, bleeding gums, dull coat and severe prostatitis. We treated these but there was (apparent to me) an underlying problem which was running him down. I never got an absolute diagnostic confirmation, but I believe that he was a long-time sufferer from Erlichia Canis, which I have heard is not uncommon for imported dogs. After going through several veterinarians who seemed to be clueless, I finally put him on generic tetracycline, and this cleared up his problems pretty well. I hate to say it, but if I had followed the veterinarians' advice, I would have gotten nowhere with this dog. I had to do some study and make my own decisions. And I don't want to make excuses for the dog, but as sick as he was, he had to feel like crap. I don't know about you, but when I feel bad, I am not always so much fun to be around. Again.. No excuses here, but I know that this did not make things any better for the situation I had to deal with. Ufo was not a large male, but he was pretty thick and solid when in good flesh. His bone was dense and heavy, and his head was broad and very masculine. Pigment was dark for a black / gold. Great paws. Not the best front, but satisfactory. Knick behind the withers. He had an overall harmonious structure, but I don't think he would do anything much today in the breed ring. He was more of an old-style "stallion" type of dog (favored by past SV president, Werner Funk), typical of some males descended from Bodo / Bernd vom Lierberg. You really could not tell what his head was like, viewed from the side, unless you are familiar with that type of a head, and then you could guess at it. He had the "Stumpfen Fang" or short, wide muzzle, which is not really seen anymore.

Now, I have a question for some of you. In reference to this link and videos, I would like to know who is the first dog in the WUSV video? My guess is that this dog has undiagnosed vision problems. He is certainly a game dog. There is something else going on here and my guess is Progressive Retinal Atrophy. Yes, there is a form of it that GSDs can get, and it is heritable, and I have seen it and had it diagnosed before.. NOT in the DDR dogs, but in an old working dog line that we used to have out here in my area. Also, I knew another breeder who used this line quite a bit and had progressive blindness. I am reasonably certain at this time that the problem came from a dog named "Zarek", and I suspect further that it came through his dam. There were locally many reports of blindness from various bitches bred to this dog. I bred to him also and know of one of the offspring which went blind at about seven or eight. He was on LAPD and had to be retired. I later acquired a very nice bitch from this line and bred her to a DDR dog that I had at the time. Actually went two generations down the line, and sold a nice male pup to a local trainer. That dog was doing good, up to the point where he started doing run-outs after the decoy. He was having trouble targetting the sleeve and would not pursue the decoy at any distance over ten or fifteen feet. Well, I took the dog back in my kennel and replaced him.. Kept him and watched him awhile. Once in awhile I would throw down kibble on the ground for the dogs to eat as a snack. They were on whiteish aged concrete, so it would not be hard to see the kibble, at all. I noticed that this dog was much slower to eat his kibble and that he was using his nose to find the pieces. That's when I began to suspect the truth. And what about the greenish glow from his eyes in full daylight? Well, I did not know it yet, but that was his way of compensating for the reduced light being picked up by his retina. The pupils of his eyes were always VERY dilated, there was a green reflection from his eyes in the daytime, and there was a little reflection on the surface of his eyes which was reminiscent of a star opal. I took the dog in to a veterinary specialist and got the diagnosis. He had a juvenile form of PRA. Well, I hated to do it, because he was really a nice, nice dog otherwise, but I put poor Malcolm to sleep. So, I want to warn you NOT to judge that any dog missing the sleeve or having trouble with the send-out after a decoy is lacking temperament. It could actually be a vision problem! If you see the dog in person, look for the green eye-shine and the dilated pupils. This is very tell-tale! And by the way, I never had any other dogs with eye problems in the DDR lines.. But it could happen.

Helser, thank you for sending that link to the videos of Boban. I just want to know who are the two dogs underneath in the "WUSV" page? Disasterous performances, of course! The first dog I believe has some vision issues (serious), but he does not lack for intensity. This is a very real dog! The second dark dog is generally lacking intensity and confidence. Not an interesting dog, at all. My overall impression of Boban is WOW!!! What a dog!!! Really, I like him, a lot. But I'd have to see a lot more to make a final judgement. From what I see, that dog is the real deal! Do you see the predatory stare and do you hear the loud clacking of teeth in the hold? I just have to point out once more that there are such things as mercenary gossip and misinformation campaigns coming from competitors.. not making accusations against anyone on this thread, but all anyone had brought up here are hearsay and allegations. Personally, I think that there are and always should be some camps in the GSD following who look for extreme dogs, and no one-size-fits-all, cookie-cutter approach to breeding these dogs. There is a mainstream, certainly. Like it or not, a LOT of these dogs do go to pet homes, and a lot of breeding is therefore directed towards the pet market. Extreme dogs are not for pet owners and I agree with the Malinois breeders who say that there are "no pet Malinois". They cull heavily and focus on the cream of the crop. I did say, "cull". I am no expert on Malinois, but I understand that their breeders have a similar dilemma.. The intensity of the dogs comes from an emphasis on selecting for strong inherited drives. At the same time they are going to get some equally-distributed undesireable (accentuated feral) traits such as avoidance, sensitivity, social subordination or dominance, and these dogs are not suitable for anything, at all, unless a very patient and understanding adoptive pet owner can be found. A lot of dogs from good working dog breeding are very stable and can go very well into pet homes. But the ones with extreme drives and energy or a high degree of pack / social drive are generally not good pet candidates. If the allegations about this dog Boban are true, then it could be that he needs a tougher handler for sure, and he could have some limited breeding value for the experienced sport / working dog breeder who wants to breed to a turbo-charged dog. But I don't think that these dogs should go into the mainstream pet population, where idiots are going to be making trouble mishandling them.

Idoggie2 and Shelly Strohl, I'm sorry to hear about your unfortuneate walks on the wild side with the dogs. It is very fortuneate for us as a community that the percentage of these types of dogs is so low as it is. It is fairly rare, and we were chosen probably because we have been around so many dogs and because we are exposed to some unethical people who would rather sell problem dogs to the first naive, hopeful person with money. If such incidents were more common in the general population, we would find ourselves in a similar boat to the Pit Bull people, our dogs facing legislation to prohibit their breeding and ownership. You hear FAR more stories of our dogs doing really noble and good deeds. The same is true of Pit Bulls, but you know how the "Yellow Press" journalists and "News" media are. They look for the sensationalist stories and don't care a bit if it's unfair or hurts people and animals. Personally, I am getting to the point, increasingly, where I do not care to sell pets to the general public. I haven't had a litter in seven years and I haven't missed it. People could have lions as pets, for all I care.. But people are STUPID and irresponsible to an increasing degree, and we are losing our rights even to own good dogs because the wrong people get their hands on them, especially strong dogs and real dogs. Where I live, punks want to own tough dogs, and these people have no business having a dog at all.. often they are young men still living at home with a single parent or grandparent. But even nice, responsible people can get into trouble with strong dogs. I wonder if it is worth it to sell the dogs to the first person with money in hand and especially people who intend to breed them mainly for sideline cash cow or a little cottage industry.