Watered Down sport?? - Page 7

Why do people as a whole only tend to remember about the "good" things in former dogsport?
There have been nervebags, there have been weak dogs, there have been timid dogs, there have been sick dogs ( a lot of HD and back problems ), and there have been training methods you would go in jail for today.
Prior to the e-collar ( and the very first e-collars only were able to "on" and "off" on a VERY high intensity ) people used sharp filed pinch collars, later on experimented with "electrical pig sticks" or electric fences ( hidden in the sleeve ). No fun for a dog, but worse: Those items were not only used to train the "strong" dogs, but were used to train the "weak" dogs, too ( forced tracking, forced bitework ...) - those week dogs were used for breeding, not only the "strong" ones ( no pain in case I bite the helper, a lot of pain in case I try to run away ).
On trials no judge cared about the "willingness to please" - there was no willingness, but suppression.
The best dogs participated on the BSP, take a look at the videos, even the best ones compared to todays standard look mediocre ( not because of genetics, but because of different training ).
I am more than glad training methods and trainers evolved, although the "flashy podium dogs" of today have to live with a lot of pressure, not that visible any more for spectators ( an "unwilling" looking dog doesn´t have a chance on the BSP of today ) - but the way to reach this goal ( not one, but 3 e-collars on one dog f.e. ) may be even harder for a dog than in former times.
I am surrounded by "top level competitors", and honestly, nobody "uninvolved" should see the training methods of some of them. It´s more subtile than in former days, but it´s still a LOT of pressure for a dog, in a lot of cases too much for me...
"Flashy" ? No, Blackmal, not at all.

BM...you're making an assumption on what you wish to see. You WANT to be proven that the dogs wouldn't handle that pressure. You actually have no idea if they would or if they wouldn't


Says the man who is more on a forum bla blah blah than realy training or decoy some dogs in his secretness.....


BW you have realy not any idea who you are talking to.

I have nothing to prove to you I know who I am and what I have seen and experience over the  years that is enough for me



Reading some posts here I understand why the GSD go falling down its very clear......

The best trainers you wouldn,t find here on forums  they realy  train dogs. they don,t have the time for all that nonsens on forums  this is also clear to me..

 

Why do people as a whole only tend to remember about the "good" things in former dogsport?
There have been nervebags, there have been weak dogs, there have been timid dogs, there have been sick dogs ( a lot of HD and back problems ), and there have been training methods you would go in jail for today.
Prior to the e-collar ( and the very first e-collars only were able to "on" and "off" on a VERY high intensity ) people used sharp filed pinch collars, later on experimented with "electrical pig sticks" or electric fences ( hidden in the sleeve ). No fun for a dog, but worse: Those items were not only used to train the "strong" dogs, but were used to train the "weak" dogs, too ( forced tracking, forced bitework ...) - those week dogs were used for breeding, not only the "strong" ones ( no pain in case I bite the helper, a lot of pain in case I try to run away ).
On trials no judge cared about the "willingness to please" - there was no willingness, but suppression.
The best dogs participated on the BSP, take a look at the videos, even the best ones compared to todays standard look mediocre ( not because of genetics, but because of different training ).
I am more than glad training methods and trainers evolved, although the "flashy podium dogs" of today have to live with a lot of pressure, not that visible any more for spectators ( an "unwilling" looking dog doesn´t have a chance on the BSP of today ) - but the way to reach this goal ( not one, but 3 e-collars on one dog f.e. ) may be even harder for a dog than in former times.
I am surrounded by "top level competitors", and honestly, nobody "uninvolved" should see the training methods of some of them. It´s more subtile than in former days, but it´s still a LOT of pressure for a dog, in a lot of cases too much for me...
"Flashy" ? No, Blackmal, not at all.

 

 

Exactly my point.  

The ones that "survived" the training... It's one of the reasons why I was so against IPO for the longest time. Because of the abuse I've wittnessed at certain notorious clubs.

Dog/animal training is just better now period.

I thought of being a pro animal trainer in my youth and worked for some top trainers, I did it because I liked animals. Working with pros of that era made me sick and disgusted and I asked them why do they do this for a living if they hate animals that much.

Fuk the old days and old ways.

 

You can still be an asshole today but its a personal choice, the info is out there for those that choose to be and do good.

Susie, that stuff is still, to this day being done in 'training' for the all mighty title.

I quit a 'club' when I watched the crew wetting the ground at the 'helper's' feet in the blind so that his electrified sleeve would fry the dog more effectively..... lines around a dog's waist on long line, and a prong on his neck so he could be 'stretched' during back transport if the dog broke the heel position....meanwhile the dog is screaming to the point that people in next door businesses arrived with animal control...believe it; many so called 'trainers' are brutal and all for titles.

Joan - I am sorry that is your experience with the sport and the clubs as that is not the case in most clubs and not the training I have witnessed with some of the "top dogs" I have seen. I have seen the Elec sleeve used a lot, but oddly enough, I never seen it used 'abusively'. But i do wonder how many new people see this stuff, not understand what they are seeing and automatically jump to 'abuse'??? I am not saying you are new, but when i was, i automatically assumed that Elec = pain and a double box collar was only used to deliver twice the shock!!! I am really glad i asked a lot of questions in those early stages

Cutaway, I'm not by any means overstating the cruelty.
I understand ecollar use, it is a tool I value in some training with some dogs, that I use.
But when a dog is screaming constantly and no escape or understanding of the pain he is suffering...that is deffinately abuse.
Using e collar to force tracking sucks. Look at the joy a dog derives in tracking when you see my young dog over on the thread, 'just another sport dog'.
Why in the heck should a dog be 'forced' to track? IPO/sch is supposed to be a 'breed suitability' test, is it not?
If the dog doesn't have the focus nor nerve base to be capable of following a track...maybe that dog should trained in a different venue. Rather than 'faking' the tracking using force.
And I have heard tell by the trainer of such method brag on how 'straight' the dog stays on the track. But watch the dog and it is plain as day, that the dog is not enjoying life. That dog died from overheating in training during 100 plus temps....oh well, just go and get another one.

True forced tracking is only used with dogs that completely lack the will/ability to track and their owners aren't willing to get rid of them because it's their dog and they aren't the kind to switch dogs just to make sure they're able to do IPO. That happens extremely rarely.

Obedience to the track...sometimes called "forced tracking" is not that bad and just involves correcting dogs when they make mistakes. It's a method to get points and the dog definitely has to have natural tracking ability, food drive, or some other motivation to get it to track more "naturally" but also learn that there are consequences for leaving the track. Again...a method to make sure the dog scores well and has little to do with the dog's ability to get through an IPO track and title. The dogs that are taught obedience to the track (using corrective methods) definitely have natural tracking ability...it's something that is used to make sure the dog works hard, consistent, and doesn't stray from the track, lift it's head, circle, etc.

Tracking is such a basic aspect of the gsd that 'forced' tracking is not helping the breed. After all, IPO/sch is supposed to be a breed suitability test

I think that we all agree and acknowledge there are 'dog abusers' inside/out of sport, but I am skeptical to believe that the majority, even high point, fall into that category. Almost all of us use 'Force' in our training, i think some just have differing definitions of what force entails. I believe that most of us on PDB do not by into the concept of punish into submission. There are even the rare few who only punish by withholding of reward and verbally marking a behavior. And guess what, there are dogs outh there that won't out/release a: Sleeve; ball; tug; ect... just for a cookie, some need a heavier correction but that is only after the foundation of an out has been established.

I think 'we' over generalize the term correction/force, just like the term 'Prey Drive' is WAAAAY over generalized by people who do not understand the phases of 'Prey' and that the term is an umbrella term used to ecapsolate a few different drives and that each of those phases are different drives