UK Show Scene - Is it time for change? - Page 8

I too raised the same queries as langhaar, especially why you need to know who the helpers are? Surely if a dog has had sufficiant training to have gained working qualifications then  the clue is in the words -working & qualification-  surely any dog who has had correct training & has a sound charactor will be willing, able & capable to work in pretty much ANY enviroment... with any helper ???? not have to have special preparation for a given event...to me as a trainer of many years experience it somewhat smacks of the dog not being established enough in its work....are these really the type of dogs that should be at the shop window of Gsds, perhaps more training would be an idea & another year on before competing at our most pretigious event ????

Its great to watch well trained dogs  working & they are something their trainers, owners & handlers should be very proud of, BUT ,it is also cringe making to see dogs just going through the motions  & not really exhibiting a TRUE working attitude to the job in hand .

The quality of the "helpers" for a courage test at the Sieger Show is very important, this issue was the subject of much heated debate for many years in respect of the German Sieger Show. They eventually agreed to a group of "approved helpers" who draw their allotted times for "helping" in a way that no owner/handler can predict when to do their courage test and therefore choose/arrange for the helper that "suits" their particular dog. It is also possible in Germany to "practice" with a Sieger Show "approved helper" on dates and places prior to the Sieger Show. It is the opinion of some, that the helper at this years Irish Sieger was somewhat lacking in experience for a Sieger Show. As I understand it the Schutzhund Sport in the UK is in two clubs, GSD League Working Branch, and the BAGSD VPG branch.  There are some "helpers" in the GSD League Working Dog branch that some consider would be acceptable and experienced with a courage test for Show Dogs, there are some may be considered unacceptable, as there are some in the BAGSD VPG Branch that may be considered unacceptable. You may be asking "what do I mean by unacceptable" - well let me try and explain, A helper may approach his task with the following attitude, "I will sort out these Show dogs courage" or "They will learn that its only working dog bloodlines that have the drives for working" or "I will REALLY TEST these blondies" (blondies is a term used by the working side for show dogs) - You may now beging to understand why this would cause concern. Some of you will say "they should be tested to the limit" - well let me tell you, IF it was one of your dogs, you would have much more understanding. Show dogs are NOT primarily WORKING DOGS, they are SHOW DOGS. The level of drives and hardness is NOT required to be, or desireable to be at the same high level of TOP Working Dogs. We need very experienced and very fair helpers for our Sieger Show, we require the opportunities to practice with them some weeks prior to the Sieger Show. I would also say that most people in Britain are inexperienced with regard to working qualifications and TESTS in Germany, many British are very quick to condemn failure, unlike the Germans who undersand that shit happens and dogs are NOT machines. It would be wise for the British to remember that many top VA dogs and even even Siegers and Siegerins have FAILED the courage test at the German Sieger Show on some occassions. Including Zamp vom Thermodos and Nando Gollerwieher. You will see some famous names in my "SIEGER IMPRESSIONS" who have failed the courage test and the Gun test.

Having been out of the show scene for some time, I find this thread particularly depressing.  Organisations that should have the welfare and IMPROVEMENT of the GSD at heart are engaged in a squabble.  Breeders of longstanding are leaving the ranks.  Numbers of enthusiasts seems to be in freefall, and the dogs themselves don't seem to be able to stand up to courage testing.

Correct me if I am wrong in my summary of the above points, but it's no wonder the breed itself is falling in popularity both with the general public and exhibitors. 

I would have to guess that part of the problem with the current show scene is the dogs themselves.  There is no way on God's earth that a dog that  FAILED  a courage test should ever go on to be SIEGER, no matter how well constructed, glamorous or fantastically moving.  It is tantamount to having a Rolls Royce without the engine.  Are the British slavishly following the German system into oblivion?

I shall always be a great supporter of the GSD, but I find it hard to come to terms with the current state of affairs.  If  show dogs need to have a 'softer' approach by the helper in the courage test, why bother at all?  It becomes a pointless exercise.  Of course not all dogs are hard, but breeders should at least aim for a solid dependable and reliable temperament.  Dogs which CAN DO THE JOB THEY WERE BRED FOR.

It's about 15 years since I last showed a shepherd, but the outlook then was far more positive.  The breed was improving, it was the second most popular breed in the country, and was unrivalled as a working police dog.  Now it is falling in popularity with  the general public  and police forces are busy breeding and importing their own. 

I wish all current exhibitors/breeders the best of luck with their stock, but above all hope they can pass on to the next generation a breed which is in healthier condition than they found it.

The above post clearly demonstrates the SERIOUS problem with many British GSD exhibitors.
"dogs are NOT machines"
(I would point out they cannot become Sieger or even be Judged in any year when they failed the courage test or gun test, they have returned the next year and passed the courage test and gun test and then made Sieger or VA)

I agree with much of what HESLEY said, which  were similar to the points I was trying to make, not all dogs are hard & I think that is a very good thing bearing in mind that the majority of GSD's bred in this country go to pet homes.But IF we want to play around doing tests of courage ( I believe it is considered a sport ???) then why have to adapt the helpers approach, as seems to be the current trend, if a dog is considered of sound enough charactor to go along the courage testing route then lets make the test a consistant one, not one thats being adapted from dog to dog, as for practicing with the same helpers that are going to be at the event  surely this makes any' TEST' a bit suspect,   its a bit like adapting the criterior to suit a dogs ability....this should be what  is done in a training situation or even a display ,but surely its makes the whole courage testing  a bit pointless if its being done in  a competition, what on earth is being proved?

Lets all remember the most important crtieria is to try to breed dogs that are sound in mind & body that as breeders we can be proud of, also to breed the type of dog that the pet owning public can also be proud of & above all can manage in a pet enviroment

Yes I do know the way the schutzhund test is conducted at a Sieger show, and I do know how many scchutzhund clubs exist in the UK, and I already know of one show Kennel that regularly comes up and practices at a schutzhund club which is three hours drive away.

There are also plenty of individuals who would help if asked I am sure.

Dave (Videx), 

Thank You for your reply to my question.  I trust Carols reply would have been the same? On that premise I am alarmed at what is being inferred.  Let me assemble exactly what is being suggested here :- 1) The Committee in charge of the GSA Ireland held a Sieger Show without the experience / knowledge of putting the right , fair and/or correctly trained 'Helpers' in place?. 2) Carol is expressing the same concern of those in charge of organising and appointing the correct people for our own British Sieger Show? 3) If 1 & 2 is not  the case, then I reiterate why the need to know who the 'helpers' are?

It concerns me greatly to contemplate their are people out there being used as Helpers in the Sch Sport who thought so little of Dogs in general, that they would consider the possibility of damaging ANY DOG (be it Show lines or otherwise). Moreover it further concerns me that any of the people I have encountered during my bried spell into mixing with the best of the BSA /VPG people that they would allow such 'Helpers' to become involved.

I can only say that on the few occasions I have attended training with BSA / VPG people I have trusted in them inplicitly, if only because I bow to their expertise. At a recent GSDL Branch Sch Seminar held in May, I have nothing but total respect and admiration for the Trainers and Helpers who gave up their time to introduce those breed people / dogs gathered there to the world of Sch.Training. Such was my trust and respect for these people that I asked if they would 'test' my Sch1 qualified import to see what she had remembered or forgotten as it had being over a year since she had last done any Sch training or test at all. I handed over to one of the  trainers who (as far as she was concerned) was a complete stranger and he , with the other trainer acting as judge by giving the commands, sent her to the 'Helper', first on then 'off' the lead both to the hide and at full pelt to the length of the field with helper weilding stick and subsequently running with her hanging on.

And the moral to my story above is....  I trusted that those who arranged the Seminar would appoint the right Trainers, I Trusted and respected both the Trainers and because I trusted the Trainers I therefore trusted the people they brought with them as Helpers and last but not least I had trust in my Dog. What are ANY of us doing allowing anybody who is not trustworthy to be a helper in the first place? As there has been inference that such people exist, then it is the responsibility of all of us to name and shame them to ensure NOBODY is ever putting their dogs in the position of  training alongside such people with a total disregard for animal welfare.

Regards

Sue B

I live in the REAL world, and it is now obvious that like children, the GSD exhibitors will have to learn by their own mistakes, as it appears they CANNOT and WILL NOT learn from the GERMANS who have over 100 YEARS experience of Schutzhund and the GSD - I think I will emigrate to GERMANY and be free of this backward state of affairs, knowledge and experience. I frequently wonder why the Brits always insist on re-inventing the wheel. They claim knowledge where NONE exists.

????? Videx ?????

people say why do we need to know who the helpers are ..

why not know who they are?

im sure the helpers would make a couple of quid for there time and help before the sieger show i dont see why the hell it matters if you dont want to go to the helper before hand then dont go its like going to a show and not knowing who the judge is..like saying if your dog is trained to go around the ring it should be alright..but we like to pratice to make them better dont we.As they do have there days when they wont perform.maybe the helpers are abit like show judges as ive been told a helper can make a dog look great if they wont to but can also make them look shit so maybe people just want to see how the helpers work.Maybe you get facey helpers aswell as show judges.so i must agree with what david and carol say things like this do need to be sorted out..

kim