Does anyone no how INGODDS ALBERTS bitework? - Page 8

Maywood, sorry to tell you but not every GSD can work especially in Schutzhund.  Some dogs just don't have what it takes.  Maybe you could work them at AKC agility or obedience but don't fool yourself into thinking every GSD can trained in Schutzhund with patience and time.  There are plenty of dogs who don't have the nerves or drives to do protection work; and  it is rather naieve to think these dogs can be trained in SchH.  It can actually be unfair to these dogs to push them into training if they don't naturally have the drives and desire for it.  Some showline dogs work exceptionally well but that depends on the individual dog.  Just because a dog has some titles in it's pedigree don't expect it to work and I'm not even getting into the "American" style GSD, you'll have enough work just getting those dogs off your couch.

Jim

I have watched this thread with great interest, mainly because I have a half sibling to Albert(through Ghandi). I too, was  not impressed with Albert's performance. However, I am rarely impressed with any performance of any show line dog in the two bite arena we call a "performance test".  While reading through this thread a few items came to mind.

1) You CANNOT find a true picture of a dog's actual ability in the sieger show performance. What  you can find is a pretty good representation of the dog's limitations. Over the years, the helpers have not pressured the dogs, have not shown any type of real threat to the dogs, I think on that we can all agree. If the dogs cannot handle a less than semi proper threat, and yet they still jump off the sleeve when the dreaded padded stick is waved above them, never mind when it actually makes a feather like touch on their withers, that tells me, this is not a dog I want to add to my breeding program.

2) For too long, GSD enthusiasts have turned away cringing at the less than stellar performance tests, and basically accepted that these demonstrations are the way it is. We should accept it, while we read and hear "reasons" why a dog did less than stellar. In the same breath, we stand there dumbfounded while spectators cheer loudly when a dog actually makes contact with the sleeve, and holds on. We, the people who should know better, spout accolades about how wonderful so and so was. Yet, we do NOT look at the whole entire picture that the dog, handler and helper present. Some just seem to be happy that the dog accepted the sleeve when it was shoved in the mouth, and held on during the clumsy like drive that IS suppose to show the helper as a threat to the dog. Now, I do NOT blame the helpers! They have been instructed over years to NOT put pressure on the dogs. If they put pressure on the dog and SHOW THE DOG's TRUE character, why that dog might not look so good, there goes a bunch of money.

3) It is time for show line enthusiast to own up to what has happened! We have assisted in diminishing the breed we love! If you are looking for dogs to breed to, STOP LOOKING TO THE SIEGER SHOWS!!! Go and actually see the dog you are interested in on an ACTUAL WORKING DOG TRIAL field!!! Oh, therein lies one of the problems, doesn't it? Out of the USA VA males and females in 2008, how many of them actually trialed in a working dog trial in the last year?

4) I have seen a LOT of Ghandi progeny over the years. One thing has been made clear to me as I look to who Handles, Owns and trains these progeny...There are those who are dedicated to the TRUTH of the dog and then there are those who are more concerned with the fluid movement and the structure. The TRUTH of the dog can ONLY be found through the actual training and working of the dog. You cannot find that at a sieger show.

Here Here DEE!!!!!!!!!    You have it spot on the money. 

molly

I do agree Albert does not bite, also doesn't like to Show, especially in hot weather. that is why I have heard he's retired from showing after he got his VA.  He did have a big piece of wood inbedded in his mouth under is tongue at that Sieger show, or that is the story I heard. they found it while he was in California a month before the San Jose Sieger, when he went VA. I also think you have to take into account the training he gets, a few bites hear and there. I have heard through the grapevine, that they are making Albert a therapy dog.  He is definately not aggressive to people. He does like his space and depending who is holding  he may growl when someone comes to close, but never have I ever seen him try to bite someone, he is very gentle with kids though.  Have to also remember he is a kennel dog only interaction he gets is from people that go into the kennel, where he is always kept. Not at someones house.

But if bred to the right female, I have seen quite a few of his offsprings and they are very good biters, have a good temperment, and are fearless. Most have very good color, depends on what you breed Albert to. there have been a couple that have lost there color as the got older.

I suppose in theory that may be true slamdunc but Albert comes from a rich history of showline dogs that are superb working dogs. Also, of the showline kennels in this country Mittelwest is known for promoting the working abilities of their showline dogs. The working genetics inherit in these dogs are tremendous so I would think it is more of a question of whether the people can do the work as opposed to the dog.

Raymond, here is a video of your dog’s grandfather (Albert’s dad) doing a schutzhund routine at the German Sieger show in 2004. Pay particular attention to the relationship this 100 pound young lady has established with this dog. This is probably the best example I can give of the point I am trying to make here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JQzTj-YKZ8. She is calm, confident and clear headed herself. And it is obvious she just loves that dog and that dog loves her.

maywood, wow you can not be serious?? are you!! you think that lady has a good relationship with that dog because of that video. all i can say is wow. when you watch the video are your eyes closed, if they are open them and you might see somthing different. I would put money on that the dog was trained with alot of pressure for the little bit of what they call heeling. the dog had 1/2 grips and they were unsettled. by the way that was not a shutzhund routine. the dog was better than most of the show dogs i have seen but the bitting quality from the video shows only a marginal dog in the bitting when compared to many dogs that are bred for working qualities. you need to wake up and start really evaluating these dogs. if the show people would compare the quality of their dogs bitting to that of the working line dogs (malinois included) they would have to come up with some real answers. but instead they compare only shit working ability to shit working ability and then they wonder why their dogs work like shit. wake up.

Maywood,

Mittelwest may promote the working abilities of their showline dogs, but they are trained to show not be in competitions. I belive every dog on that team is sent to germany so they can get titled and start to breed. They are strictly show dogs, I don't think there is a dog there other than Fabian that has ever competed at a trial. It is a shame because I have seen several dogs there, offsprings from Albert that are very good biters, think they are all in germany now being titled.

Deeswolf did hit the nail on the head.  training is everything, bad training will turn the dogs into pussies, pardon my french.

I see a dog that is extremely afraid of making a mistake during the fuss.  His head is down, and it's not an expectant "I'm going to get the helper!"  His ears would be up and forward for that, as I've seen many other dogs do (showlines included in this).

I will say that I liked his long bite (the distance wasn't much, and I won't deny the threat by the helper wasn't particularly threatening (in my novice eyes), BUT the dog didn't slow up like I've seen so many showlines do...and I was surprised.  He actually leapt up to the helper, and it wasn't far, but he moved TO the helper instead of the helper moving to him.

that's all in the training, these dogs are not focused on  the handler, they are afraid of making a mistake. believe me seen them get smacked around pretty good in training.

I have been privlidged  to be allowed to train at a supreb club in northern ill that was formed as a result of  dedicated helpers and a regional helper to train these gsd so they enjoy the work.  They train with the prey drive mentality and strongly discourage defense; Defense is only used on a dog that is emotionally and mature enough to take the pressure.   when I saw some of the videos from the usa show I was ashamed  and shocked that albert did so poorly. I would not trade my halo vom mittlewest for all the tea in china. at 11 months old she is a joy to work with . compare to what balabanof teaches in training those gsd @ the 2007 show were disgracefull. We are fortunate to have several schutz 3 titled dogs who have several times accomplised this feat . I will never allow my dog to cringe in fear while working on the field. that results from draconian training methods. A dog that performs out of fear of correction will always dissapoint on the trial field when least expected. The helpers are also critical to the dogs performance and even the helper being critical is below standards. A properly trained dog will never allow a strange helper to intimidate him. I have a ton more to learn. It breaks my heart to see a dog grovel out of defensive pressure in training . as for these so called top notch kennals: I find most of the puppies are sold off to finance the kennel with no reguard to the puppy or owner. The dogs we are trainig have more drive and bite at two years old than those featured at the posted shows.