Culling pups from the litter - Page 8

 Ok, I'm back. Didn't I say what Steve, Duke, and Hans said??? So most of us are in agreement. Mostly.

I agree w/Hans' criteria regarding "pick of the litter." I completely agree about taking notes on pups and using placement as a means of natural culling. I do believe most pups have their place, and while it may not be the same place as a top schH prospect, it's no less valued. I have actually had the "good" fortune (or not, lol) of having very uniform litters, one in particular, where I honestly didn't have what I would call a decent "pet" for anyone w/out a hell of a lot of experience. And this is not just my opinion; this is a general consensus among experienced folks who met them all. I had your typical "pick puppy" buyers and they didn't believe me when I said they were all the same. Then they saw them, and I ended up choosing pups based on really mundane criteria, like maybe I thought it would be smaller, or that person liked their ear set better. I would honestly prefer a bit more variation in temperament for this reason. I know it's what top sport breeders strive for, but I would rather have one or two at least who are a bit more laid back, with very solid temperament than 8 completely determined, tenacious freaking monsters who won't quit for anything.

As to Molly's statement about keeping track of who does what when, like "exploring", yup. It's been quite interesting to track those pups and see how they mature. I have had pups regularly escaping whatever contraption I've tried to rig to keep them relatively in the same vicinity at just shy of 3 weeks. Their eyes are barely open, they are blue and bleary, and it's obvious they can barely see, and there they are wandering around, nose to the ground, exploring. One female (and yes, a year and a half later she is still a problem child, lol) was out every single day from 3-4.5 weeks when I would come home from work. She preferred the cooler concrete. It was summer. She was by no means lost, and her dam was by no means concerned about her. She kept an eye on her  but let her be.

 Are these culls or strong, determined pups? Perhaps we all should be more like the dam- keep an eye on them, but let them be!  

Edited by Wagging. Let's not go down this path again.  It's been talked about more than enough.

molly , what is the purpose of going out of your way to save a weak puppy
who will benefit , you for your feeling sorry , you because of the money the puppy will bring , or the  breed , will the breed as a whole benefit from your attempts to save a puppy that would be  dead if you didnot do anything

you have to remember , the basis of allmost any problem in the world is human interfearance

Just because.  I can't just stand there and watch an animal die, if I think there is something I might be able to do.  My theory is, if the puppy has something wrong with it, then it will die no matter what I do or how hard I try to save it.  If it's just in need of a boost, or a few minutes of my time to warm it up, or make sure it has enough time on the nipple, then why not try.  If it's healthy enough to bounce back from being cold (which will kill a puppy in a very short time) or because it hasn't been able to get to the nipple (large litter, new mother moving around too much) then it will live, and shouldn't have any problems as an adult.

that's my theory anyway.  So far I haven't been able to save any fading puppy, though I have tried just because I can.

molly

 Molly has a point about the failure of trying to save fading puppies; I think the real problem is when breeders intervene and then sell those pups who barely squeaked by w/human intervention just as they sell the strong pups. Then those pups are bred right along w/the strong ones, and you know what happens from there. 

I wouldn't try to save one, mostly because if they're going to die, I feel it's kinder to allow it to happen as quickly as possible. I have to say I have never had a fading puppy, and have actually only lost one pup ever, and I am sure it's easier for me to say I wouldn't do it than it will be for me to actually not help when the time comes. I have been very lucky! 

molly , in my breedingprograms  , I dont save weak pups , I dont use bars in the welpingbox , nor do I use extra heating , dont use bitches that cant do everything themselves or dont have milk ,dont get out of bed to bottle , tube or anyfeed , dont have cameras  etc

do you know in how few generations you dont have anymore problems like that
do you know how few pups I lost in 25 years

what you are doing is what I call false sentiment(hope that translates well) , the only thing you will help here is your feeling guilty for these little pups

in nature , larger amounts of pups/cups  are born to have natural selection , and to provide food for other species
now we dont have to feed other species , but lets not get in the way of natures first step of natural selection , there are plenty of opportunities to screw up afterwards

I always say "this time I'll just let it cry and fuss and get quieter and quieter and fade away until it dies - but I always end up trying to save it.  Usually my efforts make the puppy live a few more hours, sometimes 24 hours - not long - if they are going to die they are going to die - nothing you can do about it in the end except try and at least feel that you did what you could and there was certainly something wrong with that puppy if it wouldn't regain strength due to my efforts.

molly

Eveyone who makes puppy litters on a consistent basis culls one way or another. By what ever poision you call it.

My feeling is that when they are under the care of the bitch then I dont care if i ever even see them. When they are taken away from the bitch then I will try and help a sick pup as best I can.