Need Advice with Prince - Page 8

Bravo to Keith for telling the truth, I haven't seen Prince's pedigree but my suspicions were along the same lines.

If you are right and this is a genetic anxiety disorder / problem in these lines~~,,what then?..In hindsight how would you handle things different with Axel..What advice / insight do you give those of us with dogs of these lines that are having issues...What does your research indicate?...

I started this post about an hour ago and got busy with phone calls and my dog, since I started there have been several new posts.....

I want to start by commending Laura and her husband for what they have accomplished with Bosco.  Bosco is a serious, strong dog with aggression issues, Prince and Bosco share some similar behaviors.  The cause of the aggression is different, the temperament is different but the approach is still very similar.  I like Bosco and appreciate a dog like him, I'd own and work him in a heart beat.  I also like Prince and I'm sure he is a charming dog that I'd also own.  Especially, if I wanted to work and show a SL dog.    I have a tremendous amount of respect for Laura and Deanna for not giving up, seeking help and working with difficult and at times scary dogs.  Laura has a tremendous amount to offer to this thread and her experience should be a road map for anyone dealing with an aggressive dog for the first time.  I completely understand how difficult, hard and challenging it is to own dogs like Prince or Bosco.  I had a dog that was very aggressive, hard to handle and was nicknamed "lawsuit" at 6 months by a friend.  Rage and aggression would be an understatement.  Dogs like this when helped and rehabilitated are extremely rewarding and they teach you an awful lot.  Sticking it out and getting control and "fixing" a dog like these will make you a far better handler and teach you so many things about yourself, dogs and dog training.  IMO, putting an aggressive dog down that could have it's behavior changed with the correct approach and gotten under control is lazy and cowardly.  Laura and Deanna have stepped up and should be applauded.

Ok, first off there probably is a genetic component to this behavior combined with a maturing dog that has been allowed to be the boss and a bully for way too long.  IMO, the genetic component really doesn't matter except to compare dogs of similar breeding or ancestors.  I'm sure we can have a discussion of people that own dogs from these same blood lines and compare behavior, looks and working ability.  Naturally, there will be similar traits and behaviors described through the lines.  This is what helps many of us find dogs that have the traits we want and avoid dogs that exhibit traits we don't find desirable.  I find aggression, hardness, nerve strength, high drive to be very desirable even for "sport" dogs.  Many folks would not want a dog like mine, but the ones that do understand.  If things work out I will have another dog closely related to Boomer in the near future.  One of the concerns with this breeding is that most people are not up to handling this type of dog and these dogs will not be sold as pets.  This is a serious litter for serious working folks.  My point is knowing what lines produce can help guide a decision of selecting a pup.  If Deanna knew what the lines of Prince could produce she might have picked a different litter or breeder.  Although, I know she loves Prince and probably wouldn't change a thing given a second chance.  

 
If these lines produce some sharp dogs it really doesn't matter at this point, that is a discussion for another day and another thread.  What is important is getting a grip on this behavior and getting Prince in line.  

Deanna, there are many ways to take the dominant position with your dog without creating a challenge or causing conflict.  These all require consistency and a new way of dealing with your dog in every aspect of his life.  As mentioned, make him sit and wait before going out any doors.  If the dog is in your way, you simply walk past him and nudge him out of the way.  Feeding the dog by hand and controlling the food is an excellent way to regain your status.  The dog does not get any affection or praise unless he earns it.  I love all over Boomer for no reason, because I love that dog......But, we don't have these issues so I don't mind spoiling him a little.  For those that have issues, your dog must do something (sit, down, stay) before any praise.  Spoiling a dog like Prince is a very bad idea.  He needs to know his place, he needs to be reminded that he is a dog and not a child or cute teddy bear. This is one of the biggest mistakes people make with dogs and have issues.  Some owners need to be reminded that Prince and dogs like him are simply that DOGS and need to earn affection.   

Deanna, you need to up the obedience and your expectation level, also your level of praise and your level of correction.  If Prince knows "sit" and you are doing obedience, then he has less than 2 seconds to respond to a sit command.  If he is slow, you MAKE him do it faster.  He gets a correction for lazy work or disobedience.  If he performs correctly, he gets a lot of praise and a reward.  I would reward with a toy and not use treats for a while.  If he knows a recall command, he must recall quickly and he is praised and rewarded.  If his recall is slow or he gives you that doggy finger...He gets corrected and made to recall immediately.  If he is ok with a prong collar then use this with a leash or long line.  You never repeat commands.  The dog is told a command he understands ONE time and then given 1 1/2 to 2 seconds to perform that command.  If he doesn't do it or has not done it, then he is corrected.  Very simple.  

Now with that said, when the dog performs correctly he is praised and rewarded like he brought you a winning power ball ticket.  You have to rate Prince on a scale of 1 - 10 for his "hardness" or resiliency.  If you rate Prince as a 6 then the level of correction is a 7 or 8.  As soon as Prince is correct and performing properly the level of praise and reward is a 11 or 12.  The praise must be immediate upon correct behavior, just as the correction must be firm enough to stop the behavior instantly and prevent it from occurring in the future.  This is what you need to go back to, and what you must master.  One good correction should extinguish an undesirable behavior immediately. It should also be a reminder of the consequences a week or a month from now.  These corrections are not emotional, no yelling no getting upset, no anger.  This is not personal, this is business and what is to be expected from the dog.  There are people that get angry and furious with their dog and take out their anger or frustration on the dog.  This is really poor handling, ruins the bond and IMO inhumane.  If the dog turns and bites an abusive handler, well the handler got what he deserves.  I never blame a dog for sticking up or defending itself against an abusive handler, some dogs simply won't take it. ( I obviously do not think this is the case with you and Prince.)  If you are in a bad mood, having a bad day or just angry...then you do not do obedience.  Never do ob when angry, short tempered or drunk if your a nasty drunk.  LOL  If I am having a bad day I simply play fetch with my dogs, I will not do ob or anything else.  I never want to correct my dog out of anger, train my dog when angry or take things out on my dog.  He's my buddy and even though I expect a high level of performance, it comes primarily from praise and reward.  Which I can not do when in a bad mood.
   
If Prince was to redirect to you after a prong correction I would offer you additional ways to deal with handler aggression.  I don't recall him ever doing this.  Prince has been left to his own devices for way too long, he is a bit of a bully and needs to be put back in check.  I really do not think it will take all that much to accomplish this.  Kelly is a great trainer, but she needs to train you more than Prince.  As I have told you and some others in the past, being firm is not being mean.  Taking charge is not actually a kinder thing for Prince.  He will respect and easily and willingly accept his place in the pack.  
 
Deep down Prince wants to be a well behaved member of the family, but being an opportunistic male dog he will take charge if he has too.  That is why you need to be extremely consistent with him as does everyone in your household.  I would start incorporating negative markers like "knock it off, No, or Phooey."  These are said in a "correction" tone of voice and a correction must follow if the dog does not respond.  After a brief use of a negative marker and correction the marker will usually correct the behavior.  

I'm sure this is TMTR (too much to read.), I apologize for going on so long.  

Anyone who knows me knows I do not push spay/neuter, in fact, quite the opposite for puppies especially.

I have, however, seen a few particularly macho, tense males benefit from it. It is not a substitute for training, but in some males it seems to take a slight edge off. In some cases, every little bit helps. At his age, Prince may be past the window where it could help a little. In all cases, you don't know until you do.

I have quietly avoided this thread because I feel there is a line of professionalism and discussing a client's dog on message boards (even when the client initiates said discussion) toes that line very closely. While I may be known for my regrettably big mouth when it comes to GSDs, I take propriety very seriously as a trainer. Please rest assured that Deanna and I are in touch.

Kelly,

I generally agree with the advice Jim has given; it's a good, solid, commonsensical approach. 

While I also agree with this statement: "IMO, putting an aggressive dog down that could have it's behavior changed with the correct approach and gotten under control is lazy and cowardly," I do not believe that every dog can have its behavior changed.  Some dogs, like some people, have mental health issues that are so severe that they can't be fixed, IMO.

Nothing you have said so far would indicate to me that Prince is one of those dogs, however.

 

I must admit that i have not read every reply on this but you have received many good points.  My 2 cents is about how you came into the house on this incident. I would leave the dog out of the crate and ignore him until he came to me. The pack member who makes the first overture is omega, the alpha waits to be acknowledged. There is no dog '' greeting'' with a kiss. They go face to rectum to not make a non aggressive  greeting. I am not recommending this greeting lol. Forcing a kiss on a unwilling dog is a good way to make the dog uncertain of your return. maybe you had an elderly Aunt [ or god forbid an uncle] who did this. ignore him until he ''asks'' to be let outside or some other behavior where he needs attention from you.

Giving the dog the opportunity to initiate contact with you which causes you to do his bidding, makes you his servant, not his master.
Personally I would project my status of master by calling the dog to me, then putting him outside.

Deanna,

Jim,,You could write a book and I would read it!!!...

Thanks for the nice comment.  But, I have enough trouble writing a sentence.  

"This has been such a good thread!!!"

It has indeed and has been uncharacteristically civil for this forum especially considering the content.  I like that!  Perhaps we're making progress toward being able to agree to disagree on some subjects without it always being so personal.

I learn something new from every dog I work as every single one is an individual and none are perfect.  When I lose sight of how much I don't know, it'll be time for me to hang up my leash and find some better way to spend my time.