Boban vom grauen Monstab - Page 8

DDR-DSH, your posts are among the very best yet on this forum that I have ever seen. Your knowledge base is impressive and invaluable for many reasons. Thank you for sharing all this hard to get inside information. I never saw UFO but was told that he was a true stallion male and had impressive confirmation (this was back in the 70's as I remember). There were not many GSD males at that time imported that had good confirmation and that looked masculine. I was told that UFO was one that did and had good proportions. At some point I heard the rumer that his importers used to throw bitches into his kennel for breeding rather than attempt to hold the dogs during breeding. I found this hard to believe at the time, but who knows since the other rumors about him have turned out to be accurate.

I find it discouraging, when people just think under different hands, different trainer, could have been a great dog (any feral dog). I think it is the Matcho coming to the surface by making such comments. There are dogs that just are in a word "FERAL". You talk of betterment of the breed and obeying the SV rules. Well, it does not matter if the dog is CHEZ, DDR, or Showline, it must have a good temperment or it is not allowed to breed. Thru my ignorance at the time I offered him to the police, they told me I was nuts and put him down, that was thier evual of the dog. Handler hard is know where near FERAL. There are a lot of reasons for dogs being handler hard. There is just one reason for a Feral dog, unacceptable temperment. Living with a dog of such a nature is like living with a dog that has RAGE syndrome at all times or just below the surface, ready and waiting. I have been around a few Crok lines, THEY ARE NOT THE SAME.

Check this link and see what the original owner and the second owner of Boban had to say about him and then make up your mind about Boban!In my opinion it says it all. http://www.vomdomburgerland.nl/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2767&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=45

DDR-DSH, I remember you posting a while back about how to collect from a dead dog. You obviously like to write. Weeding thru your posts, I'm a little lost. You get a dog that has already put several people in the hospital. You then claim that you were lucky to get out of his kennel run alive when you first got him. You then proceed to breed him and no matter which dam, the pups are admittedly crazy, but...you try just another litter, and maybe another. You then say that you had to come within a hair's breath of killing him, and that dealing with him gave you such problems that you once grabbed a stranger by the throat in a supermarket. You claim the dog had to be on a heavy chain at all times (you were very kind to make sure the chain was heavy so it would not entangle his legs), and that he could not be handled without a muzzle. You then give a step by step in how to choke a dog until they pass out, and are wonderful enough to remind us all to stay safe (ie. immobilize the dog) and to remember to give the dog air quickly after they pass out. You talk about using a hardwood broom handle over and over, and relate a 'funny anecdote' about twisting a stick thru his collar like a tourniquette. You say you haven't had a litter in 7 years. Is this related to an incident in 1999? http://www.pet-abuse.com/cases/8106/CA/US/ If you are a different Janice Bartmess, I apologize. I'm sure you will able to clear all of this up if there is some confusion of identities. However, the fact that the timeline matches, the name matches, and the treatment is in question, it makes one wonder.

LaPorte, I followed your link to pet-abuse and was horrified to read that. What are the odds of it being a coincidence and not the same person? Highly doubtful, but I'm also EXTREMELY interested to know if this is the same person. If this IS the same person, and I suspect it is (too many coincidences) then I would like to know how she justifies her statement of: >>"I am getting to the point, increasingly, where I do not care to sell pets to the general public. I haven't had a litter in seven years and I haven't missed it. People could have lions as pets, for all I care.. But people are STUPID and irresponsible to an increasing degree, and we are losing our rights even to own good dogs because the wrong people get their hands on them, especially strong dogs and real dogs." I for one would like to know if you are the same Janice Bartmess and what your response is to the link LaPorte provided. Thank you Laporte for providing the information.

1doggie2, Couple questions from your post; 1)have you met this dog personally and more important seen the dog in Feral action to make this extreme assessment. 2)"You have been around a few Crok progeny", based on the discription of what this dog has done, there have been numerous Crok progeny that have changed hands because of dog aggression AND hurt their handler in the process. I need to understand the differentiation between what we have read on this line that this dog has done and what I know Crok progeny has done. Crok didnot get his reputation because of one or two dogs or because they nipped somebody. I'm not knocking Crok but I want to see the brush painted evenly. I was training with T-Floyd when he had Grappo and for that matter his brother. The history of Grappo was very similar to this dog we are discussing. Grappo was a HARD dog, no question about it. Not only did T get him to the Nationals,but I have petted the dog on numerous occaisons and was not threatened. Furthermore, there were people on this list who were waitng to breed to this dog. Again, going by the information, "factual information," I have seen on this list, Grappo would fall in the same catergory when T got him. He could be scary!! If you have experienced the feralness in person and you are not a novice,then i respect your opinion, but I have seen to many people make assessments from afar. This post is not challenging you but trying to get a point of reference to feeling so strong about this particular dog when I've seen many dogs moved numerous times for the same reason.

"If this IS the same person, and I suspect it is (too many coincidences) then I would like to know how she justifies her statement of:" (RELLEK) ANYTHING. IF she is the same person, and 64 emaciated filthy GSDs were seized from her in 1999, an alleged puppy mill, where is the expertise?? Even without the link, I find it downright offensive and publicly irresponsible to post the above methods on a public messageboard. There is no reason to keep a dog that puts several people in the hospital, and that you have to physically restrain CONSTANTLY (muzzle and heavy chain) to insure that he never hurt anyone again. THIS IS IRRESPONSIBLE. And to add this dog to the gene pool? What is the logic behind that, when according to DDR-DSH, she KNEW the dog was completely dangerous. THIS IS IRRESPONSIBLE. People like this are one of the reasons our breed has problems. Oh, and let's teach the public about how to make your dog pass out. That's really intelligent and makes our GSD community look like responsible owners - someone boasting about owning the meanest dog on the planet and promoting methods to choke it into submission...great. Then, let's look back at the "Let's Scramble to Make Some More Puppies" post - where she tries to teach all of us that when your stud dog dies, it IS possible, if you keep him warm enough - to squeeze just one more litter out of him (and if you're lucky, maybe several). And some people get blinded by the fact that she writes 5 and 6 long posts at a time and call her an expert? She likes to see her words in print. EXPERTS don't promote the methods above on public messageboards. It's plain and simple - EXPERTS are aware of the issues we are all facing, and show some public responsibility. I don't even see common sense in her posts. Who gets so freaked by their own dog that they grab a stranger by the throat in a supermarket? Get some help.....that's NOT normal. IF the person in the link is not DDR-DSH, I'm sure she will straighten it out and I apologize. I, however, still stand behind my opinion that her long flowing prose is empty and her writings are irresponsible. And if I ever meet her, I'm keeping my throat covered.

Gustav, I have never met Boban, I do not know the dog and was not commenting on him. when handling a dog there are many skill levels, as there is with dog temperments. I agree if the dog is to much for you/or your situation/needs, you either get help or get the dog to someone who can handle the dog, selling it etc. I am saying, that there are just some dogs out there that have bad temperments period. I am not talking about the dog that has been handled incorrectly, or that needs a higher skilled handler, as with many of the crok lines. I have not met all of the the crok dogs so I can not comment on them. However, from what I have heard, and the very few I have been around, I think those lines need careful selection of mates, to acheive balance in the dog. There are other reasons for bad temperment, health being a big factor.

I once had an over the top working dog, that I knew, (not my dog, friend of mine)and had a lot of respect for this dog,(as in carefull). He decided I was a decoy on the field. He had not been worked for awhile and the breeder called me over on the field to look at a litter we co-owned. He was out taking his turn at some excerise. The minute I came on to the field, all the way on the other side. I knew what was next, there was no way to stop that freight train. Should he be put down, not bred to, of course not, He should be worked more. I do not want to hear comments about the club, dog, handler. Accidents happen. Read this link, it can explain what I was up against, It talks about the spaniel, but the GSD is listed as one of the breeds, mine was not a GSD but a rottie, they are not listed, but I owned one, a few years later I met a rottie breeder who also had owned one, she was smarter than I, and had put him down. http://www.cockerspanielrage.org.uk/whatisrage.htm

I love both breeds the rott and the GSD. I feel it is important for the longivity of the breeds, that they are assessed correctly for the temperment. Most dogs that have issues are due to enviroment/handling. I am just saying there are dogs out there that are not and never will be stable and do not belong in a gene pool.