Anomaly outside of widely held belief about Defense Drive - Page 8

3/4 of trainers today do not know how to optimally develop a strong defense/fight dog with good nerves and little or no prey, into fine working machine. These type dogs often bite more hard than full. Should be started in bitework later, rather than early puppy. Must have skilled decoy in reading thresholds of dog and proper acting in DEVELOPMENT stage of training. These dogs often require patience and knowledge to channel dog at different stages into proper foundation. These dogs can be very frustrating for the modern prey only training decoy to attain that elusive full grip that they see as only measurement of successful work. It is difficult for some to understand what I am talking about much less do it. So though there are a lot of high defense dogs with weak nerves operating out of fear based responses, the strong nerves defense dominant dog with fight does not fit the narrative of fear based work as many people today believe.

Quote by Gustav;
" So though there are a lot of high defense dogs with weak nerves operating out of fear based responses, the strong nerves defense dominant dog with fight does not fit the narrative of fear based work as many people today believe."

Absolute truth.

Thanks once again for persons like Duke, Gustav, B Malinois, and Aakaay for clearing up this observed anomaly.
And I know the dissenters are probably now rejecting the null hypothesis from behind their keyboards since none of them wants to do it from a hospital bed. What do you think hntr ?

@aaykay "we are living in amateurville ! "

well try get out more and look at real working dogs then.

"since none of them wants to do it from a hospital bed. "

that is real immature internet tough guy talk.

"3/4 of trainers today do not know how to optimally develop a strong defense/fight dog with good nerves and little or no prey, into fine working machine. These type dogs often bite more hard than full. Should be started in bitework later, rather than early puppy. Must have skilled decoy in reading thresholds of dog and proper acting in DEVELOPMENT stage of training. These dogs often require patience and knowledge to channel dog at different stages into proper foundation. These dogs can be very frustrating for the modern prey only training decoy to attain that elusive full grip that they see as only measurement of successful work. It is difficult for some to understand what I am talking about much less do it. So though there are a lot of high defense dogs with weak nerves operating out of fear based responses, the strong nerves defense dominant dog with fight does not fit the narrative of fear based work as many people today believe"


Thank you, Gustav, for the great post above. On the money !

What do I think Mithuna?
I think you are trying SO HARD to come up with all these different theories and ideas of defense and what it means about a dog and its behavior/genetics because you are in denial that you own a nerve bag squirrel. You are trying to justify her behavior and make excuses because you can not accept the fact that your dog is not ideal in what one should want in the GSD, a stable and reliable dog.
You've had a GSD for like 5 minutes and you are wanting to argue with people who have spent a majority of their life ACTIVELY training, breeding, showing, and working this breed who really have a clue about dogs. You side with someone who shares the same unrealistic idea of what a strong, confident dog is who shows a video of an obviously super stressed dog and thinks he is a rare, extreme beast.
That is what I think.

I think instead of challenging hntrjmpr to get on a plane and fly to who knows where to challenge god knows who's dog it would be far more constructive for the person doing the challenging to take their own dog and transport it to hntrjmpr's kennel and have a top rank highly professional and experienced decoy evaluate their dog in a state of the art facility humanely and sanely and settle the debate - I would jump at the chance to have my dog be evaluated at kntrjmprs's kennel. if the dog is as strong as claimed my guess is the testing kennel will make you ar very handsome offer to buy the dog for either breeding or selling on to elite level service work eg SEAL, Special Forces, SWAT etc.

win-win situation.

vk and hn ..and the reputable KNPV Malinois breeder. I think both vk and hn did not read the post of a persons like Duke, AAkaay, B.Malinois and Gustav; please re read them. As far as my " hosiptal bed " statement is concerned , it is not " tough internet talk" ; it is a not so covert sarcasm towards the frequently floated hypothesis( H ¹ ) that " a dog which primarily operate in defense is a weak dog because such offense has its root in fear, and if the dog is pressured it was easily retreat".  After testing the dog ( Mr Raymond M's Cane Corso ) for the purpose of gathering observations, ( to constrain the  H ¹ ) the next   OBVIOUS step of will be  accepting the Null Hypothesis ( H ⁰ ) , The " hospital bed part " is the figurative place where that next  OBVIOUS step  will be taking place , if she ( hn and her ilk ) dare to " throw that Neanderthal of a  hypothesis into the  empirical ring ".

Even dogs with excellent nerves will still meet a "breaking" point, so to speak. Nerves in a dog are never 100%. So, a dog with better nerves will take more pressure to go into defense(stress) than a dog with poor nerves.

Dogs that are quick to go into defense, and do not adjust from defense to prey when they should have low confidence and nerves.

Yes, a dog with stellar nerves can and and will go into defense if brought out, all dogs have different thresholds(breaking points).

It is my belief and preference based on the dogs I have seen, that dogs that stay in prey longer tend to(almost 100% from what I've seen) have better nerves.

A dog that has no prey and the only way to get it to bite is by applying pressure/pain(which is stress) IMO is not a desirable. I don't want a dog biting solely because its threatened.

Mithuna, can you explain what the decoy did to pressure the dog? Just agitation, or did the dog get a bite too?

Reason for asking is that the dog may be forward and barking, and enagage the decoy, but totally suck.

Not trying to insult your judgement about dogs, but you may have a false picture in your head of what is the desirable picture in this scenario.

I would like to see a video of the dog next time you see him train. Would be good learning tool for you to see if your thoughts match up with others who have more experience.