Dog Behaviorists - Page 9

Moons, I disagree about Horse Whispering :  the difference of approach
between original practitioners eg Monty Roberts, - in 'reading' & working WITH
the horse rather than using older, heavier-handed methods of horse BREAKING,
 - is well documented.   I do not doubt there were individuals who 'broke' horses
before that, without subjecting them to the harsher methods (eg  just hold it down,
get up and ride out the bucks, until it has no energy or spirit left to object, at a
minimum;  often far worse);  but if you look at the sheer numbers which used to
be involved when horses were more a part of everyday life for everybody, & how
little time & room for 'kindness'  and learning body-language there was in anybody's
life,  they were definitely in the minority (and old habits die hard).   There is, and has
always been, a place for those people who instinctively 'know', who understand the
animal, and tame without stressing it, but unfortunately that's not everybody involved.

[likes HM's post]

The same thing has happened with dog training. However, it's gone too far the other way. As Hired Dog said, the other half of operant conditioning is the negative consequences of disobedience or making a mistake. Even withholding a reward is a NEGATIVE consequence. Purely positive training is a myth.

And, Hired Dog, what you said in answer to my question is exactly what I was expecting to hear. I just wanted to hear it from the original poster.

Momo,
you said it yourself, it's a sandbox, maybe it's all well and good within that sandbox but it's still a box.
This is the world we live in I'll give you that, well for most people anyway.
i never judge the individual or an animal by papers, titles, or the opinion of others, experts included.
I take each individual, one at a time, face to face by observation, and understanding, not by the talk but how they walk.
Perhaps some of these people would really impress me, but until they do, it's just talk.

The whole worlds run by highly educated people with all kinds of credits and credentials, and look what a mess they've made.
It doesn't take a PhD. to figure out how these people think or what's going through their minds, that doesn't make one a mind reader, or give them any ability to look into the soul of any creature, it's just common sense and the ability to actually see what your looking at and to understand.

My biggest problem with the whole issue is labels, titles given by one to another without real substance.
And the false reliance on so called higher education verses experience and actual accomplishments.

I'll chose the one who moves rocks anytime over the one who says he knows how but has never actually done it.




 

Hundmutter,
we're still talking about titles, books, movies and on and on and so on.
I've raised and trained horses.
The first men to domesticate horses did not jump on their backs like old western cowboys and ride the ruff off of them.
They reasoned with them, it applies to all animals.
I agree with what your saying, I just don't buy the Whisperer title.


edits due to SCAYT
 

you said it yourself, it's a sandbox, maybe it's all well and good within that sandbox but it's still a box.
This is the world we live in I'll give you that, well for most people anyway.

Two Moons the point I've put some emphasis on, but obviously not enough, is that the people in the "sandbox" are making the rules and influencing cultural thought for many people working and living outside of the "sandbox".  The catch being, that in order to effect the misguided policies and thoughts emanating from the "sandbox" a person who is in opposition to such, must go out and get some credentials to have a chance to enter the "sandbox" and effect needed change.  There isn't any other way to do this except, blatantly disregarding law and/or trying very hard to ignore the broad "cultural group think" even when its sitting at your doorstep with a lawsuit.  As far as I am concerned thats pretty much a "head in the sand" way to go about being annoyed and expressing discontent with influential credentials holders. 

 

I'll chose the one who moves rocks anytime over the one who says he knows how but has never actually done it.
Love it!

I do understand Momo´s point - nowadays "people" want to see a degree, without degree no acknowledgement, sad but true.
Consumers don´t want to be involved, they don´t want to learn by themselves, they don´t want to care - they want to see certified academic training, THAN they are willing to trust...

I´m too old for this, I know there is some stuff you can´t learn at school.
A police officer might have had the best training, without strict ethics he will never be a good officer.
An illustrator coming from the best school of art will not be successful without talent.
A lawyer is useless without inborn knowledge of good and bad.
A photographer does need "the eye", otherwise he´ll stay average his whole life
.....
Dogsport / the wisdom of dog behavior is one of the last "sciences" taught by "normal" teachers, mostly without any "degrees", most often not even to explain "why".
A lot of the best trainers/behaviorists I met, never visited a high school. Some do even have problems in reading and writing, but they do have the "feeling".
These guys are followed now by "behaviorists" with academic training, who maybe are able to explain "why", but ( most of them ) are not able to solve the problem in real life situations.

A number of years ago, Ontario decided to make water testing the responsibility of the individual municipalities. In the town of Walkerton, Ontario, this meant two brothers with very little education now had the responsibility of testing water samples. Like the people you talk about, Moons, neither had any formal training in the job, but held their positions due to three decades of experience. When one of the samples tested positive for E. coli, they decided it was nothing to worry about. They also neglected to fix the water chlorinator, which had recently broken down.

As a result, seven people died, and 2,500 became ill.  Both of the brothers were found guilty in court of falsifying records, and not maintaining the standards required by the Ministry of the Environment. They also lied about the water test results, insisting there was no problem with them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walkerton_Tragedy

There's a LOT to be said for formal training and certification when you are doing a job that puts peoples' lives at risk.

Dog training may not fall int that category, but I would certainly like a trainer to have the knowledge and experience to handle aggressive dogs, and know if it was safe to include such a dog in the class I was attending.

Sunsilver,
that just doesn't hold water for me.... two brothers...i could find similar stories about those holding paper who didn't do their jobs.
Lord, I could find volumes..LOL

Momo,
If you'd ever dropped in on the off topic forum you'd be very familiar with my thinking on society and the problems we face on this planet......:)

BURN IT ALL DOWN !!!!!

I have a whole box of strike anywhere matches.

The nine are the ones with their heads in the sand and that is where society stands today.




 

Certified animal behaviorists are NOT (dog) trainers. They are usually doctoral (or sometimes) masters level researchers in animal behavior. They come from disciplines such as veterinary medicine or experimental/behavioral psychology.  

A dog behaviorist is usually a dog trainer that specializes in dealing with specific types of dogs behavior problems (such as extreme aggression).

A lot of people who are certified trainers of pet dogs do not have the stomach or experience to deal with extreme behavior problems in dogs, such as in those that have been neglected or abused.