The Myth about Golden middles - Page 3

It is very important that the working dog people understand the kinematics of motion, and the functions of different body parts including what is proper and why it is needed.  Similarly, the show dog people need to know that the schutzhund titles are needed not just to qualify the dog as a breeding animal but to understand the strengths and weaknesses of the dogs character and working ability.  The scorebook by itself does not tell everything.  You, as a breeder, need to work your own dog, and when you work your own dog, you have to find answers to your training problems through the dogs strengths, thus it helps you understand the true character of the dog.  Once you know your own dogs, and you have a feel for what you want to produce under your kennel name, then you start looking for the appropriate breeding partner. 

The schutzhund sport today places a lot of emphasis on sprints and speed, and unless you are doing high level sport, most of the people don't even think about naturally high stamina.  However, the forefathers of the breed wanted to see the German Shepherd dog as a high endurance animal.  The show dog people, in my opinion, do a lot more endurance work with their dogs than the working dog people.  This is just an example, and I am sure that other people of the list  can think of many other things  that one side does better than the other.  As a breeder, you are the torch bearer of the breed, therefore, it is important that before you breed the german shepherd dogs you understand the  history of the breed, and your goals don't vary drastically from the forefathers, otherwise you will be breeding just a one generation dog.  The understanding of the breed comes from the respect and tutleage of good breeders.

Ajay Singh

What a great point about ring training and stamina! I hadn't ever thought of it that way. Great points Ajay!

Theresa

Ceph

I have to disagree on the fact that the Pics in the old book look nothing like the west german working lines.  My west german working line looks very similar in structure to the dogs in the old pics.

We may be looking at a different book.

Ajay,

I hope you don't consider the AD alone as proof of a dog's endurance.  It's nice and fine to have that title, but it's only a proxy for what a real working dog would have to endure in a day's work on the farm or on the street.

Perhaps I am a tad naive, but I'm having trouble grasping how a judge can accurately describe a dog's working structure and ability to endure a tireless day herding sheep or pursuing a fleeing suspect, simply by watching him run around a ring while his booster club waves toys, whistles, and calls from the sidelines. 

Once my ugly working dog is titled I'm going to enter him in a conformation show to see what shags out.  However if he gets a "G" I'm going to feel the need to challenge the V1 dog to a test of working structure, West Virginia style.  Perhaps a multiday backpacking trip over steep terrain in the wilderness, or a day of mountain biking to see how the correct layback of the shoulder and angle of the croup can hold up to a 20 mile run in the woods along some screaming single track. 

Or, would that be considered "unsportsman-like conduct" just for asking?  Sorry, Ajay, but you got me stirred up when you said... "unless you are doing high level sport, most of the people don't even think about naturally high stamina."  

Chalk me up as one of the exceptions.  I'm certainly no "high level" sport chick, just a club level flunkie living an active lifestyle.  :D

Yvette

Hi Yvette:  I am glad that you and your dog are active with your dog.  I have not done herding but I have talked to some people who do herding for living.  These shepherds go about 10 to 12 miles everyday.  For the entire trip, these shepherds have to move back and forth to make sure that the sheep behave themselves.  Then they have to walk back and this is repeated six days a week.  The understanding of a true shepherd movement comes from years of doing this kind of work.  I am not defending today's judges because a lot of them either don't want to see the truth and have their judgements blinded by the trendy stuff.  Look at my own breeding, do you see any show dog on my website?  I am not defending today's show dog, but I am definitely urging the breeders to learn as much about the breed as possible.  The breed has always been with good breeders, not the judges, otherwise we will only see the top dogs getting the breedings.  May be this is somewhat true with showline breeders as all the VA dogs have full stud books but look at the BSP dogs, I don't see the last years bundessieger having a full stud book.  If you feel that you know more than the judge, then don't take the dog to the show.  However, the proper etiquette is to respect the judge's opinion even if you don't agree with it.  Believe me, being a working dog person, I have been there where my dog was put down just for the color, but it has not stopped me from learning more about the correct structure of a GSD, and it certainly has not stopped me from breeding the dog.  Sometimes when you approach things with an open mind you learn more.

Ajay Singh 

Someone could easily enough invent a scoring system for showdogs, based on 300 points.  (Say VA=300, V=280, SG =260, etc.) and add this rating to the dogs SchH scores (max of 300 in SchH3, but scores at 1 or 2 level are discounted).  You could then announce that your kennel is a 1:2 kennel, meaning you weight show with one part and work with two parts, or whatever you choose.  People buying pups could decide they don't want pure show or pure work, but want a "golden middle" pup of equal weightings, or something less balanced but not at the extremes.  Then, of course, you have to try to get a high breeding score, given your weighting.

Say you wanted show and work equally weighted and you had a dam who was SG in show and a 1 with a score of 270, and a male who was V in show and a 3 with a score of 280.  So the male would be a 280, and the female might be a 240 (depending on discounting of 1's).  Like a hip rating score, the breeding would be a 260, again if a golden middle was the goal.

It would reduce the annoying habit of people telling you what the breed for, and then discovering the litter is not remotely what they claim.  Here, imperfect as it is, people would at least have to tell you their breeding goals in terms of show:work weighting, and then merely calulate the litter value based on show ratings and work scores.  It just might clarify things a bit.

Unfortunately, I think the future of the breed is in the hands of the buyers more so than the breeders.  People vote with their wallet.  If people like a certain type, even if it's extreme, or at the detriment of the working character of the breed, then they will demand dogs that fit their expectations.

The fact that the show dogs get more breedings than working dogs is an indicator that show dogs are more popular, and this has nothing to do with the relative merits of the dog per se.

I think there are already dogs that fit the definition of "golden middle" available, hard working dogs with V conformation ratings.  So why aren't people beating down their doors to get their progeny?  Well I suppose it's not what the majority of buyers WANT, at least not on a large enough scale to drive the market. 

I think it's fantastic that breeders learn all they can about the breed, and make such improvements that they can.  But what if they can't find buyers for their puppies?  Not enough advertising?  No slick web page?  Too new in the game?  Or just not "trendy" enough? 

Yvette

I think the "Golden Middle" where GSDs are concerned is a term coined to justify breeding and selling dogs that don't measure up to the original working standard. You know Working Line Fans didn't coin that phrase. It had to come from the Show line enthusists.

 I have never liked the term "golden middle". I think it is misleading, everyone defines it differently, and the majority seem to use it as the Catch Phrase on their website as a selling point.

 In the breed we have several standards. The true standard (which is supposed to be the goal of the GSD breeder), a working line standard, a show line standard, then add all the varying american line standards. If a dog doesn't meet the true standard, or come as close at it possibly can, in both structure and working ability, how does that make it a "golden middle"?

 I don't believe anyone has said that the over the top competition dog, who is a major point gatherer, is the end all be all of the standard. There are always going to be extremes. Even in a "golden middle" litter, you find your very low end and your higher than golden middle.

I am not an extremist by any means, I just think that term "golden middle" is another way to enhance the kennel blindness of several breeders. No one wants to admit they have produced dogs that do not meet or come as close to the true standard as possible. It happens! we all know it happens, it is expected to happen. So why coin a term to make people feel better.

My personal definition of "golden middle" is pet quality. All the good temperment, solid nerve, but just doesn't have the structure or the true working drive to be all it should be. That isn't a bad thing, overall. There are people who could never handle anything other than a pet quality GSD.