breeders - Page 9

spook, show me where the Purdue research proves my assertions wrong.  Their work was very limited as far as genetics because they started out with a shortage of genetically related hypothesis, thus limiting the variance explained.  Some GSDs just can't get bloat even with bad food with a lot of grain, soya or other gas producing additives.  They belch instead.  Purdue didn't attempt to hypothesize this genetically, or several other important genetic factors.  For this reason their study is flawed, with the exception they provide useful management of environmental factors for "bloat prone dogs".  They identified bloat related factors, only two of were genetically identified specifically. What is really important is bloat prevention by genetic selection in breeding practices.  Their work on that was limited to: avoid deep and narrow chested dogs and avoid breeding to a dog with a close relative with bloat who has produced it. I know esteemed GSD breeders that told me that and a lot more over 30 years ago.  Sorry, but the Purdue study was no genetic blockbuster, and only dealt with the periphery, almost totally based on management of environmental factors.  It was designed to answer the question what causes bloat operationally and how the pet owner should attempt to prevent it, and did not concern the specific identification of genes responsible and how to breed them out of prominance.  It was never identified as primarily genetic research and certainly wasn't.  It has offered very little new knowledge that is helpful to GSD breeders and that is what my comments here relate to. And if I see clear limitations in the research methodolgy that of any such study as they relate to GSD breeding practices, I am well qualified to point that out based on my advanced graduate work and research in such as well as my training in multivariate analysis and statistics.  Once the canine genome mapping is completed (now being done on spaniels if I remeber correctly) it will be much easier to discover actual bloat/torsion related genetics patterns of heritability.  Expect this and other major breakthtroughs incanine genetics within ten years.

Preston, when you come in on the back end of a thread, you need to catch up. The following is a statemnt of mine from earlier in this thread:

"First of all it's PURDUE. Secondly, this is an inconclusive study; you can't pick and choose sentences or phrases and call it a fact. Lastly, the only scientific study still trying to uncover a CONCLUSIVE pattern is the Scripps Scientific Institute in Florida. I believe it is a Dr. Pletcher."

As you can see I know the Purdue study was flawed. As bad as you want me to be wrong you're agreeing with me. I never said your assertions are wrong. I don't know and you don't know, because you can't PROVE it scientifically. What I do know is it is only SPECULATION until it has been PROVEN.

Why not interrogate everyone on this board who breeds untitled dogs?

Spook, wrong again, I do know for certain about most of what I assert.  I am well trained in advanced reserach methodology and statistical analysis with graduate training and degrees related to such earned while part of a traineeship under the National Institute of Health (NIH).  If I wanted to and had the time and money I could easily prove most of my assertions above about the heritability of bloat/torsion disorders.  I would select a sample based on some local GSDs which I am are of which died themselves after producing progeny that later died of splenic and/or gastric torsion, and those that survived attacks of such after heroic vtereinary surgical intervention, thus also being being carriers, and still bred anyway.  I would trace the heritability and assure confidentiality to the breeders and owners.  I would follow this for three generations and then do the statistical analysis.  Based on this I could easily determine the type of gentic inheritance.  I would then attempt to back track to other GSDs in the pedigree to increase the validity and I would use multiple regression analysis.  The key is to select the hypotheses and design the study in such a way that one could actually discover the type and extent of the heritability in GSDs.  Then based on this information and conclusions I would work with geneticists who are now engaing in decifering the dog genome to link these traits to specific genes.  I am confident that most of my assertions above would be easily proven and I base this on what I have seen in real world occurrences of this phenomena over the years. I believe that these disorders have multiple genetic causes, some polygenic recessive and at least one dominant with incomplete penetrance.  In my experience the best academic research always starts out with hypotheses constructed by those with in depth field and participant observation knowledge.  The main reason that this type of research is not being done and has not been done is that there has been no major source of funding for it.  Some of the very best GSD breeding and genetic reserach was done by Lloyd Bracket of Longworth Kennel fame.  His GSDs were of legendary quality and of consistent type.  For example, Chimneysweep was a typical quality male GSD of his.  He knew how to breed consistent top GSDs over and over again because he learned the basics of genetics and heritability of GSD traits.  One more thing, what I have seen as far as heritability of these disorders are fact, not speculation because I am well aware of the carriers and their progeny that developed it and how those progeny that developed it had the same physical traits as the carriers, while those that didn't were noticeably different in construction, form, appearance and type.

Hi Preston, I have personal knowledge of a specific line in another large working breed that consistently produces dogs that suffer and die from torsion. It is so common in this line that the breeder routinely tacks all the dogs she keep for breeding and showing.

Good point Blitzen, as usual.  So many academic veterinary studies have faulty designs because the researchers neglect to consult with the breed fanciers and farmers that work with the anuimals everyday and breed them and raise them.  Any study on gastric dilation volvulus should first be properly renamed to represent the different types, such as using the names bloat, gastric torsion, splenic colic, splenic torsion and should include such variables as deficient mesentary confirmation, sloppy ligamentation, chest cavity too large, excessive length of spine, actual thickness of the gut wall, sex, age, diet, etc.  The first mistake made with the Purdue study was not consulting those breeders and fanciers with many years of experience who learned what is actually going on genetically due to the "school of hard knocks" and not designing their methodolgy based on their vast knowledge base and the second mistake was using deficient single track definitions of the disorder.  This is basic genetic research that can be done by regression analysis either of known traits linked topedigree and pedigree relationships, and also using actual blood chemistry findings and specific gene locations to bolster the finding of the study in a followup study. These kinds of basic associational studies are no brainers because the methodology is simple and well established. The best result would be results culminating in the development of actual blood tests or check swabs of genetic sampling which would then identify actual genetic markers to these disorders i each of their forms.  I believe that this is coming within the next ten years as a byproduct of the progress being made with the completion of the mapping of the human genome which has already occurrred.  Thuis same technology is being rapidly developed in cheaper more usable form, making the necessary gene replications fast and inexpensive.  Not to mention the genome mapping now going on with spaniels which is supposedly near completion.

Triodegirl: I think you need to take control of your thread : a whole night of addressing what Echo said about Bloat:      and you ask  for a Breeder to tell all of us what he or she had done , or trying to do to better the breed? Bloat is not the only genetic problem to try to eliminate....and I believe it is genetic bound also...now to what the thread was supposed to be all about......First  educate yourself beyond your own intelligence on the breed, before u start to breed....   second: base your breeding on your first training experiences and association with breeding, handling and training your own dog to those levels of attainment showing accomplishments that are the breed survey and titling...third  : take all the knowledge, training accomplishments and put it carefully into motion with the passion for the breed and an appreciation for the strict working qualities as well as the beauty in the breed altogether.....

We give dogss time we can spare, space we can spare,  and love we can spare.

and in return, dogs give us their all.

It's the best deal man has ever made.

guote: M. Elcklam

Preston, assert all you want. Without scientic evidence through controlled, blind studies you have nothing, but wild-eyed speculation. ASSERT it everyday for the rest of your life if you want, but without proof you have nada, zip, zero, etc. Surely you're smart enough to understand that.

Approach Scripps Institute, I'm sure they'll recognize your brilliance and jump right on your theory. Give it a break. You can't prove anything except that you have the perseverance to ramble on.

Spook, I'll give you one thing, you do not descriminate; you are consistently cruel and demeaning to everyone who dares to voice an opinion that opposes yours. I admire that in a person.

Spook, I think you and Preston are arguing largely over semantics - on a somewhat higher plane than the usual semantics encountered here, but semantics nonetheless.  Grossly simplified, what he's saying is that the studies need to be larger before proof certain can really be divined, and also that there is an existing knowledge base within the breeding community derived from empirical observation over multiple generations that could provide shortcuts to better focus the scientific inquiry.  You're saying that without proof certain, then there is no proof certain.  Both positions are meritorious and I don't think they particularly conflict.

What is interesting, though, is that GSD breeders in the past going back to von Stephanitz did not have any modern gene mapping tools etc. to guide them, yet through nothing more than knowledge derived from observation of the phenotype managed to set a relatively standard type within a few generations and make overall improvements to the breed.  Would that many of today's breeders could do so well!