Defense drive or Prey drive - Page 12

I liked your comentary preston .. i acknowledge  our synposis.-- BUT even  RE  the pecking oreder you describe .. first it is not a static position .. it fluctuates and is dynamic .. not as written in the books . as a behaviorist and ethologist i van validate that. ...secondly -- how is any rank established ? through association and experience.. starting from the beginings of puppyhood . YES.-- so now we can also get into definitions which for any discussion .. i think it would have been best for all to have the same definition of FEAR . but back to pecking order .. that is taught by challenge ..trial and error -- so if you want to break behaviors down  one GSD does it respect another or fear  it ?..  does the respect eminate from a previuos thwarted challenge [in some form verbal /physical /communication via gesturing? ? ] that if the parameters are not met ..there will be agression . so even in your pecking order descrition .. Is that fear .. or not... ? [perhaps we have another adjective to describe the thought , feeling, instincts emotion in regards to that behavior .. ..but i think --if you do,not have some fear/ concearn / or other outlook in sort from one animal to another .. why would you respect it ? there would be a million buliies

Hi Watsongsd,

I just wanted to tell you how much I appreciate your thought provoking posts.  You really are an enrichment to this board. 

I can't add to the content of this post but do have a question.  Can anyone describe to me the good/bad about "bite inhibition".  Also, in the same vein the desirability/undesirability of high threshold for aggression. 

Good luck to all those that are so passionate about their dogs and learning about canine behavior.  I for one have found the road with my dogs to be fascinating and still cannot believe how fortunate I am to share my life with GSDs and enjoy all the things that we do together.

Dogs with low levels of bite inhibition have problems not biting the helper. Kinda like the spazz kid in grade school that couldn't keep fron running amuck in class here and there. It is interesting to see how dogs deal with this.

You want high thresholds for dogs that are useless like therapy dogs. LOL As with anything, to high a threshold and the dog doesn't respond. Never fear though, they are bound to have another threshold that is lower and makes a mess of things. : )

Sunshine,

That was beautiful.

Hey guys, I'm all ears now.................

Hey Jeff I'm a bit offended by the "therapy dog" comment! perfect balance IS possible http://andymalyvah.tripod.com PDK9 SchH3 AND Therapy Dog!!!! LOL.

Many dogs have a natural understanding that it is "taboo" to bite a human. Few dogs are natural protectors and will actually bite to protect you. That is why in the training of true working guard dogs many trainers use 'agitation" to bring out the defense/suspucion and aggression needed to actually attack the 'bad" guy.  In sport training some of the dogs are equipment orientated and are not actually biting the handler (at least in their mind) but are going after the sleeve.

Now when you hear of dogs biting a kid etc if you research you will find in many cases the dog was teased (agitated) or it was cornered and felt threatened so it bite.  Might not have been teased by the actual person getting bit but by previous kids etc.

Another factor is that a child screaming or crying can raise the dogs prey drive especially if the child is running away.

I am mainly talking about shepherd/herding type dogs.

QUOTE:

Hey Jeff I'm a bit offended by the "therapy dog" comment! perfect balance IS possible http://andymalyvah.tripod.com PDK9 SchH3 AND Therapy Dog!!!! LOL.

I got your back! ! ! ! I just see so many people throwin out THERAPY dog as a title like they accomplished something. What ?????? Your dog doesn't bite old people in wheelchairs and can be out in public?????? THAT IS SO AMAZING! ! ! ! ! ! ! !

Then the funny thing is I know some seriously junk dogs that will piss themselves if you stare at them too long that are therapy dogs. They just wouldn't bite you.

And, is it really perfect balance???? I have had some crazy ass dogs that I could take into old folks homes no problem. It is called OB. LOL Not sure how balance comes into play. LOL Plus if you have a cool cop dog, then why the heck would you waste time with that sch title. Man up time, gotta get a ring title  : )

Alphapup, good post.  I think with many dogs, especially the males with "alpha potential--inborn need for dominance) there is a communication of gestures symbolizing "brute power" and most competitirs that judge they have less power will yield.  Some will fight as a final solution to the challenge/opportunity.  Like you I also am a behaviorist.  I have a doctorate in a behavioral science. 

I believe that some strong competitors can decide to stop their challenge (not due to fear) but because of a decision that it is not worth the price to be paid or potential loss.  I believe this is often expressed as respect for the other animal and does not have to be fear.  But I have seen GSDs that if allowed to compete for pack leader dominance (male or female) would fight to the death no matter what). 

We had the priviledge of owning a wonderful working line GSD for ten years before he died of cancer.  He was truly fearless and had terrific courage.  It was a great loss. I then bought another of very top breeding and it had a stroke as a young puppy and died (due to a genetic based vasdcular defect according to my Vet).  We decided to buy and import  a young adult GSD form Germany with proven health and temperament and good confirmation (we didn't care it is was working line or showline, either was fine as long as it would be apotent family protector).          

We then imported a top young showline GSD directly from a top kennel in Germany.  The dog has a reputation for being "fearless".  He was in fact fearless, but the problem was he was a true gangster dog that could not be reformed and was a hazard to my wife and family.  I got rid of him even though he was top show quality and excelled in bitework.  I took a fair loss on him in the process because I dealt with the problem openly and honestly. Then we decided to try again.

This time we bought and imported a GSD bred by Eric Oerschler of Batu Kennels.  The dog was within our budget (we had saved up for him) and had proven good health, good joints, good proportions, no roach back, good top and bottom lines, good angles, good bone, good movement, good pigment and normal correct GSD temperament.  He has been a totally stand up dog, and is fearless, according to a 40 year breeder who is an AKC judge, and a top protection dog trainer from Wisconsin.  We have been totally happy with this marvelous GSD and he has fulfilled all of our expectations for what a good GSD should be in every way.   When we bought him at 2 years and 3 months old from the puppy classes, and we retired him to be a family pet and guardian.  We had no desire to compete with the dog or use him at stud, except once for ourselves and once for a friend. We were very happy with the puppies he sired, their health, hips and their temperaments. I just posted a photo I took of him two weeks ago with my small electronic camera at 8-1/2 years old on this web site. His name is SG1 Blitz von Batu, KK1 "a normal" hips.  He is a very honest dog and opne with optimal temperament.

Jeff O, I don't think you have ever seen or been around a true gangster dogm, based on your view that all GSDs experience fear as a normal part of learning.  Some gangsters are redeemable and some aren't.  Everyone I've seen is totally fearless, but some can and do learn to respect their owner.   What I have now is a close as I want to go toward having a gangster.  My GSD does not experience fear, but he does respect me and my wife. If you have read my related posts above carefully, you would have understand that I didn't start the insulting, I responded to them.  That's too bad we couldn't have an open discusion of these topics from all sides without insults, just acknowledging differences. Most of you will never agree with me so I see no need to post things you can't handle without regressing to insults. You will be pleased when I tell you that you will hear little from me anymore on this web site as you have requested.  I have fully attained the success that I set out to in my life and have no need to prove anything to anyone. And at this stage in my life I could care less what you or anyone else cares about me personally. I can say definitively that there is nothing in the whole world like a good looking GSD of normal temperament, whether it be of working or show lines and there is nothing worse than a weak boned, poorly pigmented, long string bean GSD spook/nerve ending.  I know because I have owned both types over the years.

Jeff O, if you haven't already done so I think you could benefit from reading the postings about Ufo Fiemereack made by his owner on this web site:  www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/bulletins_read/77690.html#78737  This GSD was totally fearless and was very quick to bite.  He never backed down from an opportunity for a good fight and put many in the hospital ER in Germany and in the USA.  He was absolutely georgeous confirmation wise.