Defense drive or Prey drive - Page 15

workingdaeg, I am well aware of the work of LaDoux and others like him.  Having spent my time in the lab and seeing the kind of treatment of lab mice, rats and cats that many of these types base their reserach on, I have little respect for them or their research.  His work is not universally accepted to say the least.  I personally do not place much credibility in "torturing" rats in classical conditioning experiments of paired, painful electric shocks with other stimuli such as tones, lights, etc.  And his opinions (that's all they are) about operant condition and mind/emotions are plainly wrong in my view). GSDs are substantially different than rats and have much higher and differently developed brains.  If I remember correctly, LaDoux's father was a butcher and  he picked bullets out of farm animal brains to make the brains sellable.  A background of cajun backwater stuff perhaps?

I define a fear response in GSDs in normal everyday terms as a "terror response", a certain type of higher level arousal state characterized by a flight, crouch or feeze response.  Yes, I have seen this in many GSDs that could function as reasonable family pets as long as this response was infrequent..  But these dogs were not bold, standup, pack leader, alpha types, and poor family protectors with an aversion to biting an intruder.  I have seen a number of alpha males and females (mostly males) over the years that did not normally exhibit any terror response when heavily confronted by a large adversary in padded suit that hit the dog repeatedly with sticks and or rolled up newpapers.  These dogs had no taboo to an instant bite with no training or prior agitation of any kind, and the sane ones like this used the progressive application of increasing force to establish control.

One can see a startle response in the amygdala, hypothalamus and hippocampus in response to a starling or disordered event, even one unexpected that directly results in aggression without any mediating terror reaction or process.  I believe LaDoux is just plain wrong in his assertions that a fear mediating response occurs and I do not give any credibility to laboratory rat studies as applicable to the real world of owning and training a quality GSD.  No where in any of his studies is there scientific proof that all animals including all GSDs have fear as a normal reaction.  Most of the conclusions of his work, if not all, are theoretical, that's it.  I repeat my well founded assertion that there is no body of well established scientific fact that all animals, insects, worms, organisms, dogs including GSDs have fear as a normal state when faced with a potentially life threatening situation. For example a worm doesn't have a fear reaction, it has an avoidance reaction (so attribute fear is an anthropomorphist attribution and a gross error in logic). It is easy to critique LaDoux's work on his use of the concept fear and his operationalization of it.  When a true alpha GSD is wounded in combat they just fight harder, whereas a less sound GSD will become fearful and will attempt to escape.  

And Jeff O, desertranger, spook, and 4pack, I could care less what you think of me or what you think about anything. The most basic GSD I ever had is probably far superior to any GSD you have ever had or will ever have.  I doubt you have the knowledge to even know the difference to ever get anything decent.  You can throw all the insults you want at me, I don't care.  None of you are worth any more attention.  Good luck in your continued search for mediocrity and myth.  I won't miss you or your posts. It's great to bluster and banter and act like you know what you are talking about with your assertions.  It sounds all so convincing.  Problem is you don't. You can only resort to insults when others express views you don't like. None of you have any class or dignity in my view.  So good luck with your continued voyages into your GSD myths. And Jeff, why don't you shift to a malinois site since that appears to be your dog of choice? Last time I looked this particular site of Oli's was for GSDs.

QUOTE: And Jeff O, desertranger, spook, and 4pack, I could care less what you think of me or what you think about anything.

Sure you do. We all care somewhat about what people think at some level. This is the point we were trying to make with fear. It could be just enough to provoke a defensive reaction. I was not talking about the dog operating the whole time in fear.

No one likes a good insult better than I do, so feel free to fire away. Good ones really crack me up. Stop taking everything as if it were the end.

Here is an example for you. You go out of your way to single me out in the last part of your post. Here we go; And Jeff, why don't you shift to a malinois site since that appears to be your dog of choice? Last time I looked this particular site of Oli's was for GSDs.

Here is another example of how you are concerned about what I say, or how it effects others perceptions of you. C'mon Preston, don't be such a tough guy.

So try to think good thoughts, I am not always making fun of you, it is just that what you are saying doesn't jibe with anything I have done as far as bitework, and if you were into working dogs for 40 years, I would know you. I went to school for a long time too. LOL

Quote:

Hi Jeff,  Malis are your breed & Mondio is your game, what draws you to this message board? 

Yours Truly,

Sue

Sorry to disappoint, but I would hae to say my breed of choice would be a maltese. I really like those dogs, or maybe a Brussels Griffon. I think they are very cute. Unfortunatly I don't see them doing the work, so I get stuck with other breeds.

GSD's would probably be my breed of choice overall. I like Mals a little better for what I do, but not too much. If you have seen this years video of the FR championships, there is a UNBELIEVABLY PHENOMINAL GSD out there. Of course I could be faked out by the video I saw, but that is OK, I still really like that dog. BUT, there are not so many out there that I could just "go get one" if you know what I mean.

As far as what drew me to this message board, I have been here a while, then registered, but didn't post. I think it was Prestons posts that made me post here.

Most of you just seem to me, and not as an insult, to be office type people with weird heirarchy issues. Don't get me wrong, I just see so much PC here that it is a bit sickening for me. Dogs are pretty cut and dry. Peoples thought processes of them are what is making it so that I cannot find the GSD like the one I mentioned. Standards continue to drop, people exagerate their dogs, or even worse, breed them knowing full well that the best they MIGHT produce is a pet. Which of course continues to lower the standards until we run out of dogs that work for shit.

So, if I freak you out at all sue, try and remember where I am coming from. I do not need to see a continual climb in the number of dogs that cannot work, or training methods, such as the ones I make fun of,  to know that I need to make a statement here and there.

Yes, if you have to flank a dog to illicit a response for the bitework, I think the dog should not be worked.

Hope that helps you. : )

I responded elsewhere, but at least in Sch you have time between the phases to "adjust" your dog. Once you hand the Deputy Judge your collar and leash, it is on.  Unfortunatly for me, it was on ME both times. LOL

Jeff:  No, you don't "freak me out".  On the contrary, I know you from other boards, we have had a number of discussions, most good some bad.  As far as what sport or what breed is better, that's such a tiresome discussion.  Whatever breed or sport one prefers is what's best for that person.  Arguing about it reminds me of that silly old Kennel Ration commercial with the ditty "My dogs' better than your dog" in it.  Oh, I know I've dated myself, but that's ok, I'm ancient & too old for that game.

OK Preston. So you are saying "your" fearless dogs are closer to worms than rats? Are you saying your dogs don't have fear but they show avoidance? I think maybe you just aren't reading a dog right. JMHO.

 Also you made another derogitory remark about people who possibly live in cajan counrty. I guess people from that walk of life cannot recognize a good dog either? The poor broke ass fools! Them there folks down there proably run with pits instead of GSD's anyway. LOL

Preston, i don't know anything about LaDoux. i didn't post the quotes from LaDoux. some of the info i have is research papers, disrotation papers, and text books from penn state and cornell. all the info i have is being taught right now in all major universities (i know i'm enroled). so maybe the argument shouldn't be between me and you. maybe you should be argueing with the universities. maybe you should rewrite the books if your so knowlegable and have first hand experience with fearless animals. 

look if you want the info just e-mail tpd2654@yahoo.com  

jeff

your dog sounds nice. i have a gator grandson right now i'm working. the club i'm in is good friend with mike ellis. he is an awsome trainer along with has his shit together with breeding. the mal i have is a twist and byrak son.

my brother lives in the springs. if you want i can give you his info. he would love to put on the suit. hes a good ob trainer and has a nice female gsd that needs worked. i can't work her because i live in pa.

Did your brother get a dog from Brigita???? Then the dog went to you, then the dog went??????? Tryin to see who is who. LOL