Defense drive or Prey drive - Page 3

Maybe...i just don't think a dog can reason enough to think like a human in how they react to stress. A threat implies a nervous system reaction (fear) and all dogs react differently from having a low to high threshold. most dogs if you start protection training and advance too quickly can be ruined no matter the age if you start them hard.. in other words you train and condition them to handle the threat(fear) otherwise you ruin a good dog...i have seen people on this board reference how improper training runied the dog then the buyer wants to return it.  nothing wrong with fear, it is a good thing for dogs and humans. it is how each inidividual responds to fear which is the concern. A good civil dog responds with courage and aggression while a less than desireable trait is a fear biter or it tucks it tail and runs.

I'm struggling to find the right words.

A threat is not a threat unless you feel threatened (fear) that you could be harmed. As humans we have alot more ability to distinguish between what is a real threat or not. dogs have this ability to a lesser degree.

You hear alot on this database how in some schutzhund the dogs are equipment trained and have to be handled carefully to pass the courage test. even at top competition events people have posted about this. The handler comes on too hard and the dog backs off.

A good civil dog feels the threat(fear) but has alot of courage and aggression and responds in a aggressive way. Without feeling the threat or fear why would it respond this way?

Some GSDs are incapable of experiencing fear.  I have had two of such in the last 40 years.  One was bought from Larry Filo of  Steining Tal Kennels in Wisconsin and the other from Batu Kennels in Germany.  The first was out of V rated Sch/IPO parentys and was a sable, the second a showline dog sired by VA Enzo. A GSD with correct, normal temperament like this doesn't experience fear, it can't fit into their brain. They know when a threat is real and when it is not and act accordingly.  My sable always stopped an "aggressor in a padded suit" without any training. My showline GSD has alwways done great bitework with no practicing since his sch degrees. Both dogs have been friendly around children and cats and yet have been very good family watchdogs.  I have always viewed GSDs who protect as a reaction to fear being incorrect.  I don't like any form of a fear reaction.  A lot of the so called sport and civil dogs have this problem to varying degrees. The Martin brothers weren't perfect as many of us know, but a significant number of their GSDs had very ideal temperament even though they were showline breeders and established much of the world market for shiowline GSDs that now exists.  But good temperament has olso occurred with a number of other showline breeders in Germany.  There are quite a number of working line breeders and showline breeders in north America, Germany, Europe and other countries that breed GSDs with correct temperament.  I've seen some excellent temperament from Steining Tal, Kirchenwald, Eichenluft, Mittelwest to name just a few, but there are many if one searches them out, and worthy GSDs can be obtained from them, whether they are working line or show line.  In my view a significant number of hard core "working line" folks breed into a genetic corner in their obsession with "prey drive".  They end up with GSDs that are canine nerve endings which aften act out of a bifurcated shift between fear and prey drive.  This is not the ideal temperament most want.   Sad part is many of these working line enthusiasts really don't know that they have developed this problem with their GSDs.

The sable puppy I bought from Larry Filo never had any taboo against biting humans. He was smart and stable enough to know the difference between a real threat or not.  When first confronted with a real threat he bit the agaitator with no hesitation.   I once had a GSD femake in the 1970's that was 50% west German showline of mediocre breeding.  She had no protection training of any kind and no testing by an agitator in a padded bite suit.  And yet she used to stop and grab (lightly) our neighbors by the wrist inside the door when we would yell for to them to come in, and she would bring them into the kitchen or porch where we were.  Anyone who would just open the door would be stopped and progressive force would be used as needed.  She also stopped burgalries in two separate incidences in Venezuala.  She was friendly to others, children and cats and bunnies too.  This is the kind of temperament that makes GSDs the geatest breed in the world. It's unmistakable when one sees it or has it in their GSD. Isn't this what we all want in our GSDs, whether they be working line or showline?

crap... come on preston, we all can make exceptions.

Without FEAR you could not have COURAGE.

YES some dogs have a low threshold on the nervous system and but all have some element of fear when threatened otherwise it is not a threat. this is so simple if everyone would stop thinking their dog is RAMBO and fearless.

preston,  fear is a response hard wired into all of are dogs. some just have a higher thresh hold then others. now if your dogs truly are incapable of experiening fear then i would concider that a very major fault in temperment. i have seen more and more gsd being produced with very high threasholds. these dogs are often hard to work in the protection phase. i see these dogs more in the showlines. i descibe them as more like golden retriever then gsd. i see this temperment as a big fault. i am just guessing since i have never meet your dogs but i think if you sent your dogs ( the one incapable of fear) into a dark building with a big hairy scary man with a big stick and a couple of flash granades going off your dog would experience some fear.

for me i like to work with dogs that have rather low threasholds for stimulas. the dog i like is stable temperment but is easily stimulated. these dogs i have found can switch drives very easily tend to motivate very easily for ob and tracking.

i have also noticed that these dogs with low threasholds if they don't have good temperment then they generally become fear bitters.

I have lately been working alot with malinois for this reason. they are generally low threashold dogs. they are very easy to stimulate for this reason. if you get one with good temperment they are a dream to train. if you don't like to train dogs then they are a pain in the ass.

desertranger, sorry but in this case you are wrong.  My bet is that you have never had a GSD with this correct, normal temperament.  Sometime you should see a dog such as Eagle of Eichunluft or Teejay of Wilhendorf (there are many others but these are two examples of GSDs with superb, correct & normal temperament in the USA).  Then you would understand that fear can never be correct as a driver of normal defensive (protective) reaction.  I have seen a number of GSDs that have deep courage with no fear.  I have owned two that were optimal in this fashion.  Courage is hereditary and a GSD that has a full load at birth always has this. Courage is the opposite of fear and any fear based in the GSD's temperament pfrevents maximum courage.  When you have a GSD driven by a fear reaction, you have aggression based in fear and this is what most want to avoid in their GSDs.  Fear driven protection is much more limited than courage driven protecton.  However, a fear biter looks courageous at first, but their is a big difference in the neurophysiology of both.  The toughest, most courageous GSD I have ever known of was a local GSD bred by a seeing eye kennel back in the 1970's.  He was completely solid and sound, physically powerful and agile, had unbelievable courage, was a complete takedown artist and manstopper, and had no training to do so when tested the first time. The dog was incapable of experiencing fear in any fashion.  This dog was well known locally and by at least one AKC judge who thought the same of the dog as I state here.  The dog outperformed any of the local schIII dogs when tested by the sch club much to their dismay, and that was without any protection or obediance training.  He was 100% west German import blood and was a very impressive dog. Isn't that the type of family GSD most of us want?    

workingdawg, the dog I mentioned (the GSD of seeing eye dog breeding) was for his first time with no prior trials, taken into a local warehouse at night and he and his master were attacked by an agitator in a padded suit as a test.  I was there.  It was dark and the agitator jumped out of a hiding place screaming and hittiing the master with a rolled up newspaper for real. The dog showed absolutely no fear and immediately took the man down and got complete control over him.  My friends and I used to test some of our dogs this way, and in our cars and at home also, asking one of our friends unknown to the dogs to be the attacker.  Some were sound, some were fear biters, a few were totally courageous with no fear like this dog, but very few. Locally he was a legend and deserved it.  Yet he was good around his children and their friends. I think Eagle of Eichenluft has this type of temperament and Teejay of Wilhendorf too.