Defense drive or Prey drive - Page 4

preston, some dogs when threatened and feel fear they fight. hence the term fight or flight. these dogs are hardwired to fight first. it doesn't mean they don't have any fear. i see it as quiet the opposite they usally are just one opption away from running. 

preston have you ever worked any dogs in the bite work? have you ever worked eagle? or are you just making these assumptions from the sidelines. i have taken bites from eagle. he is a very nice dog with great temperment. super nice gripping dog. does he feel fear yes, but hes not going to run. he is a very nice dog with pronouced fighting drives. fighting drives come from a threat when there is a threat a dog feels fear. lets ask molly if she thinks eagle has ever felt threat (fear). she has trained with some good helpers and she knows what her dogs are. i'm sure she is knows.

Quote: Some GSDs are incapable of experiencing fear.  I have had two of such in the last 40 years.  One was bought from Larry Filo of  Steining Tal Kennels in Wisconsin and the other from Batu Kennels in Germany.  The first was out of V rated Sch/IPO parentys and was a sable, the second a showline dog sired by VA Enzo. A GSD with correct, normal temperament like this doesn't experience fear,

2 in 40 years. So basically this temperament doesn't exist. So it is not correct. What titles did these dogs have??? Because they both had super high thresholds for defense, doesn't make them correct temperament.

You have heard of fear forward right?? That is how we would like it to work. Most of the time if you push a dog into defense, you get a static reaction, but since the dog is at the end of the line, people do not notice it. Usually what occurs is the dog threatens, and the decoy cannot get closer without getting bit. Do this about 50 60 times, and you get what 6you saw in the above video, where the dog has figured out you ain't crossing that line.

Too many years of working dogs to hear about "Fearless" dogs, especially if there were only two in forty years. All dogs can be pushed into defense, even high threshold dogs. Only problem is where is the threshold for avoidance?????

QUOTE: The dog showed absolutely no fear and immediately took the man down and got complete control over him. 

OK, so it was dark, and you could see that the dog had no fear whatsoever????? AND he took the guy down and had complete control over him. What, the guy was 10 years old???? I have worked in a suit many many times, and there is no such thing as a dog getting control. You were BS'ed for sure. In the scenario you are describing, the dog cannot get enough momentum to take the guy down, unless he wants to go down, or has some sort of disability. Sorry, too many years in the suit to believe this AT ALL. It is really easy to make a dog look more than he really is, and I cannot imagine a decoy with any sense at all going down to the ground with a dog that is not trained to out. Too dangerous. If the dog was weak..........maybe, still pretty dangerous, but more plausable.

Gotta remember I wasn't always the stand up guy you see before you, I BS'ed a lot of clients back in the day, as cash was king.

 Jeff Oehlsen you are correct, I think he has "seen too much" (was a PDK9) so I think he sees SchH as a very fun game.  I suppose that's why I coudln't find any defense video's.  Oh well I tried, lol. 

Desert Rangers, like I said I'm no expert here please don't let my disagreement offend you.  You certainly have opened my mind with some of your further explaination about fear, but I still can't grasp the statement that I quoted in my previous post.  IMO that is not a desirable reaction...I'm pretty sure that you don't want to see hackles when you are working a dog in protection (in defense or what is to be percieved defense).

Regards,

Melanie

It is very hard to get "defense" on tape, the best were the old tapes that Stuart H and Charlie B did years ago in the 80's. These are still for sale, and they still get royalties so people should buy them : )  They ruined a few dogs to get  that film. I think that it should be viewed as a good primer for someone that cannot get to see a lot of dogs.

I see a lot of dogs like yours that have figured out that the goofball with the toy makes a threat and then the dog gives them the mean face, and then he gets the toy. I think the first couple f times the dog was in defence, but it goes away.

Okay, yes I see your point. 

What about when you work a dog in "defense" on the SchH field? What do you want to see? Do you want your young/novice dog to become desensitized and confident to increasing amounts of pressure and eventually not "show" a "defensive" reaction? 

On a sidenote, someone has just joined this board with the login name GSDfan1....FYI this is not ME, I will be signing all my posts so no one confuses me with GSDfan1 (Rhonda).

Thanks,

Melanie

OK, for the record, not a big fan of Sch, I enjoy the ringsports a lot more.

As far as working a dog in defense, it only works if the dog has some amount of fear. Most of the time, what you are seeing is carefully rewarded reactions. You can see the dog trying out different reactions to the helper, and sticking with the one that he gets rewarded with.

Unfortunately with the crazy amount of repetitions that you and your dog are going to go through to get all that crazy perfect OB and blinds and whatnot, if the dog was actually in defence that whole time, he would have a meltdown, and also be really weird for not desensitizing to the stimulation from his training helper.

Just something that you figure out after a couple decades of working dogs.

Thanks Jeff, I wish there was some ring sport around me...I'd love to give it a go before my boy gets way too old for this.  I know what you mean about repeitions(and I've only been doing this for 2 years, lol) I've been trying to get my trainer to pull out the bitesuit and do some DPO just for something different. 

Regards,

Melanie