anyone care to reply - Page 11

Yes, a working title is an evaluation of a team of two, not just the dog!  I see the team as combinations of these possibilies (I've read about this elsewhere, it's not my origional words below):

• great, hard dog - great handler
• great, hard dog - good / okay handler
• great, hard dog - poor handler
• "good" dog - great handler
• "good" dog - good / okay handler
• "good" dog - poor handler
• poor dog - great handler
• poor dog - good / okay handler
• poor dog - poor handler

It is going to be nearly impossible for a great handler to title a poor dog.  We are talking working lines here.  I know people are going to say "No, a great handler can do anything!"  But honestly, the dog just has to have some of the ability-- if not, only God can title that dog, and He is not for hire.

When both handler and dog are "poor", than the result is "no title".

Of course, people say some buy titles.  I don't think that is at all common in working-line dogs.  Most people can't buy a title, I know I can't. I think the dogs that have purchased titles are a very tiny fraction of the whole in working lines. 

I think we've worn this subject out. In a previous life, maybe I was a pitbull dog, and I was probably jealous of GSDs, hence the reason I own them now!

Veronica

Veronica

I think you missed the point many are trying to make. 

Would I want the highest rated doctor?  Of course, but that is for work.  Do I really need the highest rated doctor for a companion?  I don't think so.  Do I need a high rated pedigree for my pup if I want to get on the podium?  Sure!  Do I need a BSP x WUSV champ puppy to be a companion?  Not at all.  Am I going to look for a great pedigree, health, and temperment?  Sure!  But I don't need the parents to be titled.

I think what DO RIGHT says is right on.  You can compare different species.  My father is a chemical engineer.  When I got to chemistry in high school, my teacher was astounded what my dad did for a living.  Do you think that every doctor's son/daughter will be a doctor because he has a title?  The only reason a doctor's kid will have a better shot, is because he will be beter equipped to monetarily send the kid to a good college, the kid will grow up in that environment, and he could probably pull a few strings to get you into his med school.

If we can't compare dogs to humans, why is there the same philosophy when it comes to a sperm donor?  This actually supports your argument.  People don't go to a sperm donor and ask for a 5'4" garbageman that flunked out of junior high.  No, they want someone who has excelled in academics or athletics.

Maybe it went over my head, but what was the point of the "Bodyguard" and some ad you saw?

Oh, here I go, ruining my exit.  I noticed that I did not add...I feel a breeder's opinion is very important, as important as a title.  But the title is the best indicator for most civilians, that the breeder is not biased towards their breeding stock.  It is a good check on opinion.  Without titles, we can have a downhill slide only too easily.  There probably are some very experienced and dedicated breeders out there who, through observation, know if a dog has all the working qualities he wants to perpetuate in the breed and will ruthlessly weed out those that do not.  That is a very experienced and strongly honest breeder indeed.  I know I don't meet that discription, I think I will keep training.

You know, I can type very fast, or else, I would not have such a dead blammed long post.  I should tape my fingers together for awhile, I admit.

Veronica

Veronica

Titles are wonderful to gauge a dogs status, but there are numerous dogs out there that have lower scores and less titles that I would breed.  I personally don't like the totally sport GSD.  I hate to see a dog go into the blind and do a prey bark, begging for the sleeve and get full points for the exercise.  I would rather see a powerful guard with the dog actually holding the helper in the blind, even if he gets dirty and bumps a bit. 

A good example, was a dog that Gary had and sold to Tom T.  This dog was at a national event and had great scores in the A and B phase.  He went to C and would not out.  Everything else was incredibly powerful.  He failed the phase and got a 0.  After the trial, more people than ever wanted to breed to this dog.  Ask Molly, she knows who I am talking about.  The point is, people wanted to breed to this dog because he was a powerful dog, not because he passed this impossible test. 

Don, human beings are not a breed they are a species that has "undirected breeding".  It would probably be more statistically significant to compare the reproduction of humans to the uncontrolled breeding population of say...deer...than to dogs.

YOU do not need the parents to be titled.  But to keep the BREED going in an honest direction, we need working titles on the breeding dogs. 

I think we should just agree to disagree.  The USA national breed registry gives us the freedom to go either way, so long as the puppies are breathing, they can be registered with the AKC. 

I like dogs with civil and defensive drive too.  I think keeping that in the GSD is what keeps the true character of the breed.  Without a title, or without seeing indications in real world work...how do we keep it in?  Do you really believe opinions are enough?

You would not have seen this dog had he not been at a trial.  The dog would not have been at a National event if he had not had a title.  He sounds like a very good dog, completely committed to the bite, though control is important also.  I don't think a dog who barks in prey is without civil or defensive drive, though it does show that he is trainable.

"Without a title, or without seeing indications in real work...how do we keep it in?"

-------So a junk yard dog is O.K.?  Or how about a Search and Rescue dog?  Or a Narcotics k9?  A junkyard dog has no titles and the S&R and Nar k9 have not or could not do bitework.  Is a dog that works on a farm considered a working dog? I know they don't get titles. 

I guess the point I have been trying to make, is that you are ruining the breed by telling everyone that a puppy needs to come from titled parents.  I know this sounds absurd, but it makes sense.  If everyone went out and got titles on their dog, there would be no one but the total scumbags selling affordable pets.  People would want more for puppies that are out of titled parents and that is not crazy.  The people that are breeding just to breed would still be advertising in the papers for their $400 untitled pets.  The mass public has no idea what these title are and would go buy thes garbage puppies out of the paper.  There are more people who have no idea and are pet buyers, not sport, show, or work enthusiests.  Now, with them being forced to go to garbage rather than very nice pedigreed pups better for the breed?

Maybe you are a numbers person.  Which is better?

Plan A:   100,000 pet home buyers(who don't want to spend $1000) + 100,000 garbage puppies + 50,000 nicely bred, but no titled parents

Or your plan:

100,000 pet home buyers(who don't want to pay $1000) + 100,000 garbage puppies + 0 nicely bred, but no titled parents

Schutzhund, ring sport, PSA are what civilians have and can do, and SAR if they have the time, desire, and physical endurance.  Narcotics K9 is what police can do. 

I say yes to SAR, Nar K9.  Those are real world certifications of work.  These are clear indicators of working ability.  This is not breeding on opinions, it is breeding on observable working characteristics.

I'd say no to the junk yard dog.  I don't think we can see observable working ability there because those dogs are without control being exerted on the desire to pursue and bite whatever comes into their territory.  I don't think that proves good working characteristics.

If I could see the farm dog working with a very good pedigree, see what a fine job he is doing, and seeing what he acts around strangers he is introduced too...if he does well there, I'd say I had observed real proven working capabilities and good character, and breed him to a TITLED bitch who also has working capabilities that I have observed.

Nothing is perfect.  Yeah, we have the crazy drive sporty dogs with titles who would not bite an intruder unless he was dressed in T-bones (food drive!)  I don't personally feel those dogs are good potential breeding dogs either.

Don, I don't think we are necessarily in complete conflict here. I think we like the same kinds of dogs, possibly with the same temperaments and working attributes.