anyone care to reply - Page 4

My dog has titles.

She just doesn't know it.

Domenic...If you are a good breeder and have the ability to make good judgements the title does not matter at all. A good dog is a good dog.  If I know someone with a good dog then it is easy to make that call but when dealing and looking at dogs far away having a title gives you some security of the quality you are looking at. But even a mixed breed can be titled.

The sire of my female had no title but was a working police K-9 so I was not even concerned about the title.

Do Right - My understanding (or misunderstanding) has always been that "titles" help to distinguish dedicated breeders who are actually invested in their dogs from BYB's who are merely in it for the $$$. Titles also demonstrate that the breeding stock's good genetics allow for a certain level of physical and psychological accomplishment that poorly bred dogs couldn't acheive. *Shrug* I don't think titles are necessarily something to dismiss as insignificant.

WOW, I really thought I would be castrated here, but as it has turned out, I have received private emails from several, that thanked me for my post and agreed 100%.  Additionally, the above posts, although not exactly in line with my way of thinking, are far from hanging me from the nearest tree.  But I am still near enough to the foxhole to dive into it when the shelling starts

I have contended on this site in several other threads, that if I take my dog to, lets say, Shelly Strohl, or AKVeronica, Dean Calderon, Molly, or any of a hundred others, and they assess my dog and tell me that for 6 grand, they CAN title my dog, then do I really NEED to title my dog, to breed from it?

If my W. German show line male from VA Dux de Cuatro Flores (Ursus free by the way) and V Zimba Hirschel, has checked out okay with OFA, has no health problems, is a wonderful family dog, and EVERY one of his littermates are currently titled (which they are), but I do not participate in Schutzhund and have no desire to, does that mean I should not breed from him?

If I have trained my own dog in what most would call very good/excellent obedience, without belonging to a club and/or seeking a title, should I not breed my dog, for fear of being labeled a back yard breeder?

It has been said by me on this site but before me by someone that I respect for their knowledge on this site, that when you breed a dog, you get the same genetics from that dog, whether or not that dog has a title or not.

Yes, I understand that titles tend to "help" with knowing that you have the possibility of getting adequate genetics to perpetuate the GSD with abilities to do what we like them to do, however, I submit (because of all of the shenanigans that go on in the titleing world), that a knowledgeable, experienced dog person (notice I did not say GSD person), can pick the good ones from the bad, as well and probably better than titles would indicate.

A great family protector, companion and pet is far superior to a sport dog, that is just one of several in a kennel out back.  I know someone that has one Sch II dog inside the house and over twenty five titled dogs in kennels in the BACK YARD.  I am not putting them down for that.  I am just stating my case that titles ain't "all that".

Standing real close to the fox hole

"Yes, I understand that titles tend to "help" with knowing that you have the possibility of getting adequate genetics to perpetuate the GSD with abilities to do what we like them to do, however, I submit (because of all of the shenanigans that go on in the titleing world), that a knowledgeable, experienced dog person (notice I did not say GSD person), can pick the good ones from the bad, as well and probably better than titles would indicate."

The part of your response that I've highlighted is the crux of my own argument. With all of the BYB's that are pumping out sickly, dysplastic, spooky dogs, the novice just coming into this breed needs some rope to grab on to at least begin to make judgment calls on what can be deemd a good breeder vs a bad breeder, good solid stock vs poor stock. Looking for a good GSD pup/dog is a peril filled journey for the uninformed, believe me I know from first hand experience. Titles serve as someting quick and dirty to latch onto to begin the slow climb toward your GSD PHD. Only after imersing yourself in the GSD world for some time do you develope the ability to determine if a breeder and his/her stock is quality whether titles are had or not. And yes there are those who abuse or mishandle the titling system, but show me any dog judging process that is flawless? The point is new people need a measure that is at least half way trust worthy. It beats just googling "german shepherd puppies" and picking whichever breedr happens to be within a 5 mile radius.

Once again Do Right, good points.  To touch on Golden Elks post, I think a title helps as a security cushion as Do Right and DR were getting across when you're thinking of breeding to a dog that is not geographically convenient to you to assess in person yourself.  Yes in that case I personally would feel a little more comfortable and probably would not breed (if I were a breeder) to an untitled dog that was sight unseen or knowledge of who the owner was or about. 

IMO a professional breeder with a larger scale kennel looks at this as a "business" regardless of what they may try to convince others-let's just call it what it is, yes you may love the breed, enjoy the dogs but in the end you're not giving pups away nor are you donating dogs to organizations so it is what it is.  IF you fall into this category and it's a "business" then you must treat it like a business and market your product to the people that will pay you the most, will come to you before they goto MR/MRS XYZ 10 miles away that also put out nice litters at a more reasonable cost because well...they are "financially stable" and could care less if they make a profit- they just do it for the rewards.  So then you must target the people such as the sport people who will pay more for a pup so long as the parents BOTH have titles.  This doesn't by any means guarantee that that pup will do as well as the pup you could have gotten from MR/ MRS XYZ  BUT they will spend more and take that chance.  A "hobby breeder" which would be Mr/Mrs XYZ isn't gonna be as money motivated and may take extra caution on what they are breeding and who they are selling to???

There's a lot of people that post ads that are breeding "titled dogs" but we've also heard many discussions on their breeding practices.  This would contradict that if a breeder is breeding Titled parents they are more credible.  Just had to put in my 2 cents. lol

BTW- I don't knock the "business people" someone's gotta do it why not them; but let's just call it what it is and be honest about it.  Oh and do it with some morality.

Well said Agar.  As most of the frequent readers here are aware, there is a dog that is "the most titled dog in the world", that is well, you know.  I don't want to get into that old song again.

Beginners, yes, should diffinitely start with titled dogs if they are going to "jump" into breeding, but nobody should be breeding anything if they don't know what the heck they are doing.  There should not be any beginner breeders that are not first, knowledgeable owners of the GSD.  IMO.

I have been toying with the notion of breeding my male with my female that passed OFA with a "good".  As most of you know, my other female did not pass (sigh), I have never bred GSD's before but have trained and owned many.  I think today, I have "talked" myself into it.  I hope she just has two or three pups, so that I can keep them for myself and one or two of my sons.  I can't stand the thought of selling them to strangers, and not knowing how they will be treated.  I know my boss at work (I have a part time job now), thinks the world of them and "wants a pup".  She loves dogs and takes good care of her two little ones.

We'll see.  I have to get permission from my real boss (the wife).  Guess I will have to rub her feet come "heat" time for my bitch (the dog fellows, not the wife)

Do Right - just to clarify, the references I made weher not aimed at newbie breeders, as  id on't feel someone novice to the breed should be jumping into dog breeding. My reference was aimed at anyone looking for a solid, healthy dog for, family, sport or companionship.

A partial quote (I left out the country) from a recent ad that many of you have read, I am sure.

"One of the best dogs in ---------

High Quality male for the serious competitor in High Level of SchH sport.

Also outstanding for personal protection, extrem bite work.

It's not a family dog."

Not putting down what is obviously an outstanding sport dog at a great price, if that is what you are looking for, but this statement kinda goes along with my points about family dogs vs Schutzhund dogs.  You see ads and statements like this often, concerning sport dogs.

Do right ~ I love the way you write! You can put your thoughts down so clearly! I also agree with your line of thinking!