anyone care to reply - Page 6

OH NO.  Echo, now you have doomed me.  Having you on my side is like the kiss of death on this site.

Ya know I'm just kiddin, right?

flipfinish:  Nice common sense post.  Can't argue with you, dang it!

  Flipfinish:   Give you three guesses whos progheny this is? After reading your post ,thought Id throw one at you.

Jaj

Do Right,  I know I'm so sorry sweetie,  But I could not resist.

I also wanted to comment on FlipFinish comments as well,  EXCELLENT !!    and congradulations on a well planned, well done litter !!  

Hope this does NOT get you guys burried ,  But hey we'll all be the same fox hole,  we won't get lonely  ROFL.....  mmmmmmoooaaahh

Do right, I sarcastically said that the beagles made good police dogs--- when you were using as your examples for correctly breeding untitled dogs... a 4 pound toy dog and a small 20 pound hunting dog...as compared to correctly breeding untitled GSDs.  There's about a million miles between these two types of dogs.  It doesn't matter how courageous a chiuahua is in the face of violence.....can you say "squashed"?

Flipfinish....perhaps the parents of your puppies were not titled, but you take the time to state that the grandparents were all SchH3.  You have successfully piggy-backed on the efforts of other breeders who DID take the time and effort to title their dogs to prove that they can work. 

The problem is that, although there are untitled dogs who deserve to be bred, there are not many people who are honest about or are just able to see the capabilities of their untitled doggy woggy.  Titling is a more objective way to prove ability--- than just the fact that two dogs have all the right pieces and parts to make puppies and you want to share the love.

AKV:  I don't see a lot of difference between a skinny (aren't they all) Mal and a chihuahua.  But that could be the subject of another thread on another day.

As for your comments to flipfinish, concerning "piggy-backing" from all of those other breeders in the past.  Well, isn't that what everyone who breeds dogs does?  Except for those starting their own breeds (and we don't want to get into that Shiloh thing again).  If you get a puppy from a VA or as BSP placer, then you are piggy-backing on someone else's lineage and genetics, including their blood, sweat and tears (now THEY had some good songs back in the day :).

When you buy a dog, you are paying for what proceeded it in its lineage and pedigree, including the training and titleing of your new pups ancestors.  That's why they cost so dang much.  It may be piggy-backing, but you are paying good money for those that titled prior to you.  If you breed untitled dogs, then you don't sell their pups for as much.

Same genetics though, titled or untitled.  If you get stud service from a litter mate of my untitled male, and the stud is titled.  What are you paying for, other than a marketing tool (the title), to sell puppies with?

No difference between a skinny Malinois and a Chihuaua....Other than the fact that one dog is a shivering four pound dog bred to sit in a lap or be carried in a purse, and the other dog is 10 to 12 times bigger and heavier and bred to excell in protection sports...nothing I guess.  Please ignore me while I roll my eyes at you, it means nothing, honest.

The difference is contribution.  Does the breeder contribute to passing on the genetics of dogs evaluated to have the working ability of the breed...or not contribute.  If I breed to an FCI, BSP or WUSV competitor or winner (I have), I am attempting to contribute more than someone who for their own convenience just breeds two dogs that happen to be easily available with neither having been proven to do anything. 

And I have sold the highest drive puppies from the WUSV and USCA National Schutzhund Champion dogs for the same price Flipfinish did the puppy from untitled parents.  There is not even the difference in price to consider, there is just a big difference in effort.  Many other breeders also sell puppies with one or even two very accomplished parents (real world work certified or International Schutzhund competitor...both are trying to pass on the Right Stuff) in the price range Flipfinish sold his puppies from un-work titled parents--$800.  So his thing about price just does not hold water. 

It's about convenience and taking risks.  It is convenient to convience yourself that titles don't really matter at all.  It is not nearly so convenient or safe to title your own dogs, purchase a titled dog, have a dog trained to a title, or send your bitch out several hundreds or thousands of miles in a crate on a pricey round trip on an airplane while paying a handsome stud fee....taking chances while doing so. 

Because of this post of yours I will feel 100% better on putting post up of Chaos and showing him in YES, UKC, lol.  Thanks : - }

The problem I see with supporting breeding dogs without titles and breed surveys is that it sends the incorrect message to novices (and others) that it's OK to breed a dog that would not be eligible for a breed survey and might not have the right temperament to earn a title. This would include whites, coats, dogs with missing teeth, nervy dogs, etc.. I'm not sure that is in the best interests of the breed. The experienced GSD owners/breeders  are able to reconize a breed worthy dog without titles and breed surveys, but I think we are tredding on dangerous ground by suggesting to everyone that it's fine and dandy to breed a dog that has not proven itself by earning a title or is not eligible for a breed sruvey due to some disqualifying fault. Whether that is the intent or not, it's what some are going to take away from this thread and they will go out and breed their white dogs (for example) justifying it by saying - I know plenty of good breeders on the PDB who told me it's OK to breed SnowWhite although she can't get a breed survey and isn't titled.  They do it too..............

Be careful with trivializing the importance of titles and breed surveys since that could very well encourage more to produce GSD's from unworthy parents. There are already enough pet GSD's in the world, do we really need more?

Blitzen:  You are correct.  There are enough.  We really do not need any more.  So let's all just stop.  That will force those that want one, to go to a shelter and get one.  I'm on board for that.  Anyone else?

AKV:  I don't want to address price because there are so many variables.  Bad ears, bad tails, bad whatevers.  Plus, sometimes there are "fire sales" because people need money, so they sell cheaper than they originally intended.  Dozens of other reasons to not address price.

I will address the notion that flipfinish or me (if'en I breed without titles) are making money off of the sweat of someone else who actually went to all that it takes to title a dog or forty.  My reply would be "don't sell any puppies and no one can piggy-back on your sweat".  Simple really.  Unless it is of course, about money.  Title your dogs, sell their puppies only after being "fixed" is another alternative.  I don't expect anyone will be doing these things though.

So, don't get mad at me if I buy one of your puppies (not that you would ever sell me one now ), and breed from it without titleing it.  You had options.  I just laid them out for you.  Of course, even if you did not sell me a puppy, I could buy one of yours from someone else who bought one, titled it, and then sold it to me for 6 grand.  That would be a shame though, as I could have got it straight from you as a puppy for 800 smackaroos and saved a whole lot of money, and the genetics would be EXACTLY the same.

I reiterate that when you purchase a puppy for whatever amount, you are paying for what was done with its ancestors, whatever that may have been.  Airplane rides, title training, vet bills, etc.  Just like your phone bill.  We are using something that was made through the sweat of Alexander Graham Bell, and we pay for it.  He got his, you got yours and now I have a puppy that came from well trained parents.  Thanks.  But I did pay well for it.  That is what makes the world go round.

As I have read previously (it might have been in this thread by flipfinish, I don't remember where I read it), titleing is really all about the owner or handler doing "their thing".  It ain't really about the dog.  Just about any medium to large sized dog of the appropriate breeds, can be trained and titled in Schutzhund.  If you don't think so, I will contact one of many via the internet, and ask them to take my little "Snow White" and title her.  She is a white German Shepherd who lies to kill cats (made up dog folks, so don't chastize me for my cat killing dog).  I will get offers of a guaranteed title, for the appropriate fee of course.  How is that possible without even testing the dog.  I'll tell you how.  Because titles ain't all that hard to get for the dog.  It is about the owners and handlers abilities, and not so much about the dogs abilities.

Yellow rose,

That is a Bastin progeny if ever I saw one. Not a fan of Bastin, but nice boy nonetheless. I saw Bastin at the 2002 nationals when he won, he had incredible obedience, Gary always has nice obedience dogs. What I didnt like was his protection, oh I know he got a 99, but it was very "routine" and "scripted" with a serious lack of real aggression. The dog knew what to do, though and with very little mistakes so I guess it is a matter of what you want. LIke I said, 2 pups from him I have seen, and I even had a Bastin daughter for a month before returning her, did not impress me. But I have also heard of people getting very good Bastin puppies. Go figure..... I think Gary could compete with anything, he is just that good (like him or not).

Blitzen,

I guess I see your point, though I still think that simply lowering prices would also help stop people from breeding anything. I would say that "showline" people care more about the titles than do working people and the fact is that most "showline" dogs do NOT EARN THE TITLES. Ever notice a judge turn his head at just the right moment? Or maybe the host club put him up at a really nice hotel and fed him tons of cocktails the night before, maybe slip him a couple hundred bucks. Say what you want but it happens, and I have seem judges "give" titles to dogs that DO NOT deserve a schutzhund title. So titles alone, as with anything, are not enough. You cannot make a generalization like "only titled dogs should be bred". I had a friend who had a Wildersteigerland (sp?) female, Sch 2 and she had 2 litters with a 75% displastic puppy rate and 4 long coats. The vet reccommended an immediate spaying of the bitch, I agreed and helped her find a pet home. So, yes I agree with you, but no I don't. I am telling you, and nobody will do this cause GSD's are big business, if we as a whole lowered prices of puppies and dogs, INCREASED our screening process, and did more pre-home socialization (housebreaking, imprinting, etc) then the breed would be better off.

I can say if my couch potato son makes it all the way to the streets as a narcotics dog, I WILL breed couch potato again. He has great structure and color, and his temperment is perfect! I don't need a title to tell me that he has the right stuff.