anyone care to reply - Page 7

Oh, I forgot to address the "eye rolling" AKV.  My point about the Chihuahua and the Mal, was that my personal Chihuahua had the attitude and temperment of any Mal out there.  Not that my Pee Wee could have stopped a man like a Mal can.  Of course I would love to have a conversation about IF a Mal can stop a Man.  Slow him down for sure (as could Pee Wee), but win?  I don't think so.  But lets save that one for another day.

The thing about attack trained dogs (those trained to attack a person and not a sleeve either worn or tossed on the lawn), is that they are geared more towards usefullness by those that can not take care of themselves.  In the movie "Bodyguard", this world class (really just an actor) personal bodyguard type, has a little bitty mutt at his house to protect him, and when asked why he did not have a big dog that could stop somebody, he said it is because he only needs to be aware that someone is coming, and the stopping is up to him.

That is the way I look at it.  Somebody comes to do bad at my house, all I really need is a Chihuahua to let me know that there is someone coming, then I will handle the rest.  Of course with a wife and kids alone, then I want a big dog, to give a little assistance and cause a lot of thought to the bad guy that maybe the house next door would be a better place to trespass.  That is why I have two in the house.  They are for her, not for me.

I like you AKV and Blitzen, and I am in no way putting anything down that ya'll do.  I just disagree about titleing.  IMO, it is all about the owner accomplishing something, not so much about the dog.  I can buy a titled dog or twenty, and never have had to put in any sweat, only money, and have an operation up and running, selling puppies from titled dogs, to peoples all over the world.  What a great country,  Eh.

Flip, when you say high prices are bad for the breed, you are preaching to the choir. The downfall of any breed is when it becomes a "money breed" for lack of a better term.  Not making a small fortune from puppy sales limits any breed to those who are in it for the betterment of the breed. If GSD puppies never sold from more than $500 I'm pretty sure you would not see nearly as many being bred.

I would not hesitate to purchase a puppy sired by a narcotics dog. IMO that's as good or better than most titles and in my mind a narcotics dog or any dog that works well in a service venue is a titled dog. Flip, my first big SV show was NASS a few years ago and I was just shocked to see most of the dogs get the same ratings for their bite work when it was very clear to me, a rank novice, to see that not all performed equally yet received the same evaluation. In order to fail, the dog had to leave the ring and/or not even attempt to engage the helper. Those who took a partial grip, failed to out on the first command, went back for additonal nibbles after they outed, constantly looked at their handler for approval, etc were all rated the same Huh? Why? I just could not  figure it out and no one else knew either, I asked.  A local police officer in uniform was standing a few yards away from me laughing, shaking his head and he finally left the field in disgust.

I understand the disdain working people have for showlines. Titles are not all there is and some are not deserved. However, many are well earned. I myself look at them as guidelines with which to mentor novices and an indication that - breeding good GSD's is going to cost  you a lot of personl sacrifice, time and money. It's not a get rich quick scheme if you do it right.  Encouraging the breeding of non-titled GSD's that are not eligible for breed surverys, IMO is not the right way to mentor novices. I'll bet  you that some who read this thread who own GSD's with disqualifying faults are giving some very serious thought to breeding them.  You know the difference, they don't.

At one time I thought I would breed a litter of GSD's. I knew a lot about dogs and had successfully bred another breed for 30 years. I knew about health issues, HD, ED, eye checks and thought that was all that needed to be done to breed a good litter of GSD's. Boy, was I ever wrong and after I had my epithany I knew that I was not willing to do all that I wanted to do to be a good breeder of imported GSD's. This may be why some go from the SV way of doing it to the AKC way of only needing registered parents. I decided then when I want another GSD, I'll buy or rescue one. I'll let the breeding to the experts .

Blitz,

Well said. I try to argue and you come back with good common sense. Let me say that also with the show lines, the obedience is usually as bad (or worse) than the bitework. The dog usually doesnt look at the handler, forges, and is very "loose" in heeling. Drives me nuts cause I trained my show boy to "LOOK AT DAD OR ELSE" when Fuss is given. He needs reminders from Mr. Pinch collar from time to time, but one or two timely corrections and he is back to "I'm here, sorry!" and making a nice picture. Anwyways, I'll try and post the video of him heeling for a change of pace.....

That would be nice to see, Flip. I have to get my butt off the computer. Blitz got skunked early Sat morning and I'm still trying to get the smell out of him and the house. Next comes the peroxide, baking soda recipe courtesy of Hodie;  the mouth wash didn't help much  .

Do right

Get ready for that ass whipping!  Just kiddin'.  I have said the same thing on several posts.  I hate to do it to you, but I am in agreement.  Titles don't make the dog, they are just a good measuring stick.  I have stated before,  the common household doesn't need a SchH3 IPO3 FH2 KKL1a sired puppy for a pet.  Most people that want pets, don't want to pay 1500 for a puppy.   If there aren't knowledgable breders out there with reasonably priced, well bred german shepherds out there, the mass of public will go find a scumbag in the local paper.  This will ultimitely leave the breed worse off.  I don't know who said it, but GSDs are very popular and mostof them are in pet homes.  I read a lot of posts on here and many say that they won't sell to a pet home. "My pups are too...........I would never put one of these in a pet home".

I'm not saying that everyone should breed to everything, but I always laugh at the stud ads that say, "TO APPROVED BITCHES ONLY!"  This is a catch22.  You're screwed if you do, and screwed if ya don't.  If you truly believ that your dog is that great and it is for the betterment of the breed, by turning down someone's female, you have now sent them to a lesser male to breed.  they are going to breed if you accept their female or not.  Now I understand why people do this for the breed, but ultimitely, you are doing the same thing both ways.  They go to a lesser male and that isn't good for the breed either.  So take your Grade A male and breed it to this Grade C female= hopefully Grade B puppies.  Now turn them down and you get Grade C female with someone else's Grade C male= Hopefully Grade C puppies.    Just some food for thought.  I wish people that have to breed and nobody will stud to their females, would go get sperm from one of the producers.

This thread has got to be every Backyard Breeder of German Shepherd Dog's wet dream. The majority of the opinions here basically give license to individuals like theses:

http://www.salhausgermanshepherds.com/
http://www.pierreswhiteshepherds.com/index.html
http://www.ahgsd.com/aboutus.htm
http://www.geminigermanshepherds.com/
http://www.appyhorsey.com/id40.html
http://www.geocities.com/lengagsds/
http://germanshepherds-puppy.com/longcoatpuppies.html
http://www.angelfire.com/nm2/anfarrashepherds/
http://wes-tracstables.tripod.com/index.html
http://www.vomhausdettmer.homestead.com/
http://www.whitegsd.com/
http://www.largelonghairedgermanshepherds.com/
http://www.old-world-shepherds.com/
http://www.asuperiorgsd.com/

...to continue with their sham of a breeding program. I'm all for a good debate and proposing a topic of discussion just to raise opposing POV's but the general air of this thread strikes me as incredibly irresponsible and basically posits that no reasonable system for judging the breed-worthiness of dogs exists, so every one who wants to  breed should just resort to their own opinion on the matter and do as they wish, ethics be damned. The folks in the list I posted above agree with you 1000%

"The problem I see with supporting breeding dogs without titles and breed surveys is that it sends the incorrect message to novices (and others) that it's OK to breed a dog that would not be eligible for a breed survey and might not have the right temperament to earn a title. This would include whites, coats, dogs with missing teeth, nervy dogs, etc.. I'm not sure that is in the best interests of the breed. The experienced GSD owners/breeders  are able to reconize a breed worthy dog without titles and breed surveys, but I think we are tredding on dangerous ground by suggesting to everyone that it's fine and dandy to breed a dog that has not proven itself by earning a title or is not eligible for a breed sruvey due to some disqualifying fault. Whether that is the intent or not, it's what some are going to take away from this thread and they will go out and breed their white dogs (for example) justifying it by saying - I know plenty of good breeders on the PDB who told me it's OK to breed SnowWhite although she can't get a breed survey and isn't titled.  They do it too..............


Be careful with trivializing the importance of titles and breed surveys since that could very well encourage more to produce GSD's from unworthy parents. There are already enough pet GSD's in the world, do we really need more?"

Blitzen - Thank you for once again being a voice of

Golden Elk

Thank you for the sites.  I have been looking for a puppy.  I'll check out the sites you have provided and hopefully I can find something.

Seems as though I am the odd man out, so to speak. I like that there are "rules, guidelines, criteria to meet" before our beloved breed produces the next generation. Even though I have german show line dogs, I despise the show portion of meeting those requirements. It bothers me PERSONALLY, that others take the easy way out. It is my PERSONAL  belief that those that do not put the time and effort into following the guidelines take the easy way out.  I do not like that there are breeders who do a "Test breeding" before they put all the time and effort into the dog. I understand it, but I don't like it.

I have worked my arse off to get my very first HOT GSD conformation titled, schutzhund titled, breed surveyed. I am fortunate, that my bitch loves what we do, and made it easier in some aspects for me than in others. All my other breeding stock, I purchased titled and as known producers. I will never send any of my dogs away to be titled in another country or by someone else in this country.

Maybe it is an ego thing, very well could be. But, my dog and I did this together. I am proud of her! Proud of what we have accomplished. I am anxiously looking forward to what my young male and I will now accomplish together as a team. My female is taking some maternity leave and will be back to training and trialing on the Schutzhund field by late fall.

I think what I like about dogs that are trained and not just titled, you can actually see that the dog has made the pedigree, not just that the breeder says the dog has the pedigree. There is so much more to breeding than just putting two dogs together. I have learned more about this breed, the history, the genetics, and my lines from all the training, trialing, and I hate to admit it, even from the conformation aspect. Without all that, yeah, maybe I would be lucky and get a good litter or two, but I have more education now, more understanding, and if I am going to take the time away from trialing while Gipsi is on maternity leave, I want it to be because we did it all based on the criteria we needed to meet.

So the person who just wants a pet and says,  "What?"  when you say SchH, should be buying from someone that has titled parents and doesn't want to sell to them anyways?   Wise decision!  That helps the breed too.  Like I said, these people are going to go to the local paper and buy a piece of shit because anyone who put all that time into titling will not sell for less than $800, and that is a low price.  These people don't know the difference between a SchH 3 FH dog and one that has sat on someones couch letting out methane.  They are gonna go for the cheap dog because to them a pedigree is meaningless.  They don't know who won the BSP, what the BSP is, or what the hell you are talking about.  These people buy more dogs than the sport side of the GSD.  They are not going to pay the high Titled parent price. 

Don:  There are many breeders of showline dogs & working line dogs that sell puppies as pets that for whatever reason don't have the chops to make it in either arena.   This is where pet stock needs to come from.   There will always be people who want to buy a dog of any breed but want to pay bargain basement prices.  I don't think any self respecting breeders is going to say "Oh man, there's MY target market". 

Here in the USA we already tried to do it our own way.  The result is the American Show Shepherd.  Perhaps we should show respect for the parent organization and adhere to their standards at least until the day comes that we consistently produce as good a GSD - if that day ever comes.