Chicks doing helper work? - Page 6

Yes I agree, but first a person must learn what is defense and what is prey and what is....?

One day I watch dogs and ask about drives and whatever comes up of interest that day. Another day I watch the decoys and ask about techniqe and stuff.

Good discussion and many things to ponder.  I agree that it is important to know how to read dogs, but this is not something I believe I will catch on just by watching on the sidelines.  I will take it slow, and seek help from experienced helpers.  The good news is that as a novice I have the tendency to err on the side of caution and I am quick to "lose" to a dog rather than risk avoidance.

Jeff-O, you've given me much to think of, but as to my "tardo" handle SchHBabe, piss on ya!  I'm a cute redhead and make no apologies for it.  If you continue to imply that I'm "retarded" in any fashion and I'll be forced to come over and box you about the ears with my Magna Cum Laude chemical engineering diploma.  Don't make me do it! 

Although reading a dog is a priority in schutzhund, (I can't speak for ring sport) to down play the importance of sleeve presentation is a ridiculous. You can be brilliant at reading a dog, but screw up the best bites with poor presentation. (Yes, presentation is easier to learn.) A full calm bite can make or break a schutzhund performance. 

I don't believe that this is equally as true in ring. It seems to me that presentation is of less importance in ring. GARD I know you're familiar with both...any comment?

One of the reasons, (not a big one) I don't go back to Sch is the retarded sleeve presentation. I know it is necessary, but I just outgrew that childish need. I like a dog that can bite wereever.

The ringsports do not "present" anything. WHere the dog ends up tells you an aweful lot about that dog. Good strong dogs when given a choice will go to center, and weak dogs tend to grab extremities. Training can alter this, as well as a really fast decoy, but the worth of a dog is much more apparent in ring.

Take the last Mal world champs for sch. A good number of dogs got hurt with this foolosh sport. Mals come way too fast, and every year there is some stink or the other with the Mals. GSD's plod in there and are easy to catch.

As far as being athletic enough to catch a dog, I can tell you pretty much first try whether or not they can do it. I think a monkey fucking a football could still catch sch style, but that is just me. I do know people that cannot do it, and I make fun of them non stop.

Schbabe(nerd) I think that I am changing it to Schnerd. After you box my ears do I get to spank you??????? : P

Jeff, you're the fool if you believe a sport that rewards a high prey dog that receives an enormous amount of handler help through it's performance is superior to a dog that needs to channel, clear headedly, beteween drives. Many of the folks who have left schutzhund are the ones that weren't smart enough to compete. If I thought you had the ability I'd let my slow plodding GSD pummel you.

By the way, what's the best you ever scored in tracking at a National event?

Not sure exactly what your question is Spook, but I will give it a shot.

If you are talking grip, French and Mondio ring do not score grip. Nothing nada. The grip can be with canines or back to the tonsiles; doesn't matter in ring.

You are correct in that presentation is not as important for ring.   You need it for Ring but in totally different ways. In Ring the decoy is trying to make the dog miss and/or prevent the dog from biting at all. This is one of the reasons grip is not scored in Ring. The dog sometimes is lucky to just get a piece of the decoy; when they do they better hold on. If they attempt to re-grip they better be fast or the decoy will take it right out of their mouth and take off or use the stick to prevent re-engagement. All the time your dog is losing points. So the entry for ring is more about adjusting and taking the leg/arm that is available; not the one being taken away. In ring you actually  teach the dog to bite something other than what is presented because what is being presented is going to be taken away if the dog goes for it.

As for the decoy reading the dog, with sleeve work it is a matter of timing and reading if the dog is going sleeve side or stick side. In ring it is reading if the dog is going high or low, if they are targeting a particular area; you take it away. Then you have to read if the dog is slowing down anticipating the move from the decoy. It is alot more comlpex in my humble opinion.

Not saying one is better or more difficult than the other. There are more things involved in suit work IMO but it also about time and eexperience. My suit work is far better than my sleeve work.

Not sure if that was what you were looking for........

As Kristen pointed out, Anne Kent has been doing helper work for a long time.  She's at Adler Stein in So Calif:

http://www.adlerstein.com/k-9club.htm

Jeff let's face it you run your mouth, but you can't even pass a 2 phase ring sport. What national was that at? I've seen plenty of ring sport flunkies with Mighty Mouse mouths and Mickey Mouse asses. You are more than likely one of them. The last ring sport I saw was the Canadian Nationals; it was a farce.

I always wonder in amazement when people refer to Schutzhund as easy, not a real test, etc. If there were the case seems every dog out there would have a SchH3 behind their name.