Nature VS Nurture/Tino's Evaluation PT 1 - Page 2

Shandra

My advice is to read the first post again.  Everything you just stated, furthur validates what many have told you.  I am not trying to belittle you in any way, but you don't have the experience to even read a dog.  You are way off on what you think your dog is doing.  You think Tino is protecting you and that is wrong.  Ears back, growling, and hackles up.  My guess is that this dog would have ran from the guy if he wasn't on 2 leashes.  This is a fear bitter.  He is not courageous or protective of you. Whenever he sees a threat he gets scared and tries to defend himself.  Self preservation.  Why do you think he had no problem with the dog, cat, or women.  The only reason he snarled at your sister's friends was because he had no way out of the van.  He was cornered in the back. 

I would take option #4.  You don't have the experience to deal with a dog like this.  Even people with experience don't want to waste their time with a dog like this.  Why would you when there are plenty of nice dogs out there?

The thing about the retractable is that the dog is pulling you and in my opinion leading the walk. If you have a no pull harness and a retractable, you are giving conflicting messages to him.

Having read about the  conflict between him and your son, I would be very careful.Tino sounds like he can't distinguish what is a valid threat or not, and can't recover from his initial accessment. That does imply genetic temperament, and I would be careful about those upcoming puppies of his.

Don, I have read and reread every post. The more I read the more I am convinced that is what I need to do, as much as I hate to. Now my problem is, as you stated, "Even people with experience don't want to waste their time with a dog like this." How do I find him a suitable home? I have read his pedigree and the lines are good lines from what little knowledge I have. Good stable dogs in the background and siblings that I have found are stable so can I safely assume his temperment is from the way he was raised? I have no experience but I dont think it is breeding? any suggestions?
Therese

Therese

Just because a dog has a terrific pedigree, it doesn't give you 100% guarantee of what you will get. 

I know I stated that people with experience don't want to waste their time, but there is always someone out there.  Maybe a single guy that lives on a farm etc.

Shandra, I feel for you. I know you love this dog but also realize he is a danger that you can't afford to keep around. I hope that someone here can help you place him. Try a GSD rescue and tell them the problem you are having with him, maybe they can help. Some have trainers on staff who can evaluate the dog for you.  You may have already said where you live, but I missed it.  Please list it again, maybe we can help you locate a rescue. However, there is the real chance that you might not be able to find him a proper home, so then your only choice will be euthanasia. That would be more humane than placing him with someone who might be abusive. Again, really sorry, my heart breaks for your having to make such a terrible decision.

I replied earlier from the shop but it didnt go for some reason.

I am going to talk with the previous 2 owners and see what we can come up with.

I am unclear about 1 thing tho, Several have said he needs to be corrected, I am dense today, in what way would you suggest I correct him for his behaviour? Crate him? what other methods? I need to get a pinch collar for sure until I can resolve the issues.

Therese

Therese,

Have you contacted his breeder and discussed all of this with them?

Shandra,

If you go back and read your "need advice" thread the general consensus was you or your son should not be correcting this dog. Now you are sure you need a pinch collar? If you correct this dog; you will more than likely increase his insecurity and aggression. When the dog acts aggressive and people react ( and they will) he gains confidence in that aggression. That is how fear biters turn into dog's that have "forward flight" and start going after people.

Let's take a look at what this trainer is telling you. You said she gave you 4 options. To crate the dog when your son is around, kennel him outdoors, find a behaviorist, or get rid of the dog. You did not say she offered to train the dog. Why do you think that is? It sound to me like she saw exactly what your dog is and put him in positions so hopefully you would see it as well. It doesn't look like you are.

On that thread, Jeff Olsen told you the dog has nerve issues. You said you disagree. In this thread people are telling you the dog has nerve issues. From the information you gave myself and others are saying the dog has nerve issues. Don Corleon and others have said you are in over your head. You are not listening to what people are telling you. You are searching for the answers you want to hear.

In another thread you are asking about sales contracts and evidently you bred this dog. So now you have bred a dog with nerve issues that will produce puppies with nerve issues. Do you not see the problem here?

So I guess you can keep this dog. You can take him to a behaviorist and try to "fix" something that cannot be fixed. You can separate him from your family. You can keep him at home or be afraid every time you take the dog around people. How is that any better than the life you  "saved" him from? Maybe after you continue what you are doing, and make things worse, you can take him for a ride on your bike.  Hopefully he doesn't go after someone and pull you off.

I do not think you are a bad person. You stated you are a "newbie" to all this. Honestly though, I think you are being incredibly selfish with this. I think you are putting what makes you feel dog in front of the safety and well being of the dog and others. Do you think maybe you should chalk this up as a mistake, learn from it, and take what you have learned to make a better decision with a different dog?

I am sorry if I sound like an insensitive asshole. I tried to offer supportive and sound advice in your first thread, as did others. When people choose to ignore good advice and choose to make poor decisions that risk the safety of others, it is time to stop being "nice". I hope you see the sincerity in my post.

I would suggest you stop looking for the answers you want to hear and start listening to what people are trying to tell you.

I know I am in over my head, I have admitted that. I am not ignoring others advice, I am weighing the options to find the best resolution for Tino, not me. I do not understand what is meant by "Nerve Issues" . My idea to take him riding was based on him being a working bred dog and boredom, some had suggested that was an issue and needed something to focus on.. First I am told to correct the bad behavior then told I shouldnt correct the behaviour. So I should let him growl and snarl and just ignore it? No I need to be very careful that I do not put him in a situation that will produce those reactions. If he were to act like that with me, am I not to correct him? You better believe I will not allow that behavior towards me. I got him while my bitch was in heat, with the misguided intention of breeding them. I  know now it was wrong. They bred the second day I had him, before knowing his issues. Poor judgement on my part. hindsight is 20/20.

To everyone that has avised me to rehome him. I appreciate your advice and comments and yes I do take it to heart. What is not understood is that I dont have the option to just rehome him at the snap of a finger. I am in a small town of 5400. There are limited options. I have to have a workable solution while I am trying to find that home. Do I want to exhaust all other options before getting rid of him? Yes, if it will help him. If it wont then I am not going to.  It has been stated that even experienced handlers/trainers would not want him. Limits my choices. He paces endlessly when he is put out in the yard alone. I had put weight on him and now he has paced all that weight off again so keeping him seperated has created another issue.

I have contacted both of the previous owners, explained the situation and am waiting for a reply. 1 is a breeder/handler/trainer in protection and shutzhund. He should have information I hope.

I am sorry I got on the defensive but I am trying to do the right thing here for all concerned.

Therese

Therese

I have a dog with major nerve issues from a pup. She started out fine but by 10 weeks of age I began seeing problems (10 week old pups should not growl or get squirrely with eye contact). Her background is impeccable and many siblings and half siblings are wonderful dogs... luck of the draw for me I guess.

I was faced with the same feelings as you are having with your dog, with the exception mine was excellent with family members. Strangers, other dogs, new situations were a big challenge. This was a female that seemed to have aggression and fear aggression all in one body. At times the fear was obvious and other times she showed none but only aggression. Actually my vet labeled her that way. My problem was like you, who would want such a dog and what would become of her life.

I had to make some choices,(1) keep her and protect her and anyone who might come in contact with her, (2)place her in a home where someone knew her attitude and issues, or (3)PTS. The later was not an option for me with a young healthy dog. No amount of socializing had improved her to a reliable companion though try I did. I chose the first option. She is almost 10 years old. She has mellowed with age but is not and never will be reliable around strangers. When someone unexpected comes to the door, she goes outside or put in a crate. When someone expected is coming she goes to my upstairs bedroom where she likes to be anyway. She never goes to public places unless she is in the van going for a ride. On and on, I am always having to be one step ahead. If I had to do this again because of who I am, I probably would make the same decision for the dog. But it is not a lifestyle I cherish and in some ways when she has passed it will be a relief even though I will miss her.

I am afraid if you choose to keep Tino this is what you must be prepared to do. You have to keep him safe from biting people and people safe from being bit, forever until he dies. One option you could invest in would be a basket muzzle he can become accustomed to wearing in certain situations. My dog never goes to the vet w/o one. Even though now I feel she is not so much a threat, the risk is not worth her not liking to wear a muzzle. I don't envy your decision, if you keep him your road is long and tedious, its do-able but not fun except when its just the two of you together. You have my sympathy. BTW I think your boy has bad nerves, ear pinning is showing submission, growling and hackling is saying the best offense is defense even when there is no real threat.