Nature VS Nurture/Tino's Evaluation PT 1 - Page 6

Don- I think you were the only one who gave us all the most intelligent advice and it was to stop wasting our breath.  I feel bad about the lady AND the dog but worst of all for the person this dog may bite one day.  If this were a little yorkie or a beagle I'd say yhea, go for it, give the dog a shot maybe you can turn things around enough that you all can find a happy medium, but that's no the case and although she says she'll rehome him it's been several days since this discussion has been ongoing and never once have we heard what she's done since then to try to "rehome" him.  Stick a fork in me I'm done! lol

LMH,

Yes, I did have a bad male....not a Crok male though....but a Art Z. Lipin grand son.  Guess where he is today!  I rid myself of that dog and it was the best thing I have ever done!  He was no joy to own!  I speak to Shandra out of experience!  The Crok stuff you are reffering to is a nice bitch I have and the conversation was about Crok bloodlines..

Vickie

www.PowerHausKennels.com

LMH,

The dog that I had that was a bad boy was dominant agressive!  Yes, he destroyed more crates than I care to count!  He would scale any fence!  I finally got a crate that I called the "bear cage" and kept him in that......I considered him a danger to my family!  

I finally rid myself of him when he reared up to look me in the eye with stiffened body posture, this dog was challenging me for pack leader!  In the dogs world the next to follow would have been a serious fight to establish who the deffinate pack leader was!  I had strung him up a few times before for dominance issues.......this dog was potentially dangerous and I was not going to let one of my family get hurt by this dog!

LMH, I can find that thread for you if you want....that do is listed here on the database.  S-Kodiak v. h. Cimmerian! 

The Crok dog is a gem!  An awesome worker and very social but is nice and civil when it is appropriate!  I would not trade her for the world......I think the comment/conversation you are thinking of is that there was a discussion about the guy wanting to find a dog with extreme agression and someone said Crok lines.  I was of the OPPINION that the person looking for the extreme dog needed to re-think what he was doing!  I was mocking this individual when I said I was not brave enough to breed the dog I kept in the basement in a bear cage to my Crok granddaughter....but he could feel more than free to experiment with that!  I was Mocking that guy if I remember correctly!

Thank you for the opportunity to explain it further!

Vickie

www.PowerHausKennels.com

Yes, Don.  Tougher ones as in tougher cases.  But.....you probably knew that was my meaning, or am I giving you more credit than I should.  I have to wonder because when I capitalized my own "I HAVEN'T SEEN TINO, either", it should have been obvious I was pointing out  that my opinion was as inconsequential as all the others.  But you apparently didn't comprehend that fact.......and furthermore----Where do you come up with the line "How can you consider someone being concerned for the child, insensitive?"  HUH??? I did consider many posters pushing buttons when they implied that Shandra cared more for the dog than her child.  Maybe you should go back and reread my words ("Oh, and BTW,.........................INSENSITIVE mother.)   I see.......there's that word---insensitive.  ??????????

I'd give the dog a chance, and I'd work with the boy. Would you.......probably not.  As to the nerve issue-----Analyzing expressed degrees, stressors and triggers are futile to explore without personally seeing the dog.  The point I am so feebly trying to make is that to give up on a dog and a person, who (WTF), is willing to try.............is wrong.

You know, Don.......Ever wonder why we talk so much about nerves and read ads stating 'no dog aggression', and 'loves kids', etc. as part of the dog description? ( You never read ads that are likewise worded when searching for a Golden Retriever.) It's because there are so many GSDs that are not kid friendly, etc. etc. etc., or should I just say 'not clear headed'.  Many people work around these traits, rather than opt for altenative options.  It's their choice, and who says it's easy?  Yes, it's always preferable to have the perfectly stable, friendly GSD.......but, it's not always the case. 

And, Donny-----Kennel???Crates???? I'm not even touching that one. Those words are not part of my working vocabulary.

Uh, Agar???? So if Shandra doesn't follow your advice, or the most intelligent advice (that of Donny's), what then????? She's in exile?????

PowerHaus----Meant nothing about referring to one of your dogs.  Actually, I respected your dealing with him.  Too bad it didn't work out.

Look people-----I had my say.  One against many.  I'm afraid our subjective experiences will always play a part even when we try to be objective.  Shandra will do what is best for her.

LMH

Would I give the dog a chance? 

That is a complicated question.  I was giving a person that doesn't seem to be able to read a dog herself, an opinion.  I honestly probably would have never taken the dog in the first place.  The evaluation would have been done on the spot by me.  To further prove the point that Shandra has very little knowledge, she has bred this dog to her female that is a Golden Retriever in GSD clothing.  Two dogs that shouldn't be bred.  She thinks that when the ears go back and the hackles go up, the dog is courageous.  Why in the hell would I recommend to a person like this, that they should keep the dog in thier home and try to train it. 

To answer your question, NO.  No I would not give the dog a chance.  There are too many nice dogs out there for me to waste the time on a fearful, nervy dog.  I wouldn't keep that around my kids.  I love my kids and if they were ever hurt by a dog, I don't know what I would do.  I have a very nice female I imported that I have to sell because I need to open a space for a male coming in.  I would love to keep the dog.  She has awesome drives, great temp, nerves and a natural retrieve.  She is everything I could ask for in a dog.  If my wife didn't live with me, she could stay, but we have a limit in our family of how many we can have and I am at my limit.  I have respected my family and have placed an ad for the female.  This is a female without all the baggage and nerve issues.  So yes, I would have no problem at all placing that dog with someone that is single and willing to provide a home.

Shandra,

If you are still reading this, I will give you my answer to your last question......

You asked what kind of dog owner you would be if you took the dog out and shot it in the head.

My answer is if you did decide to put the dog down it should be done by a vet if possible. I would say you are a responsible dog owner.

What would that say about you as a person? It would tell me you have the courage to make a difficult decision. You care enough to not dump a potentially dangerous dog off on someone else, unlike the dumbshit that sold the dog to you. If it were me, I would put the dog down. I am not telling you what to do, you will have to make that decision for yourself.

There are far to many "Captian Save A Dogs" in this world and far too many nerve-bag dogs in "pet homes". I got my brother and sister in-law a pet GSD from a friend of mine. Good looking, perfectly stable, great pet. It just didn't have the drives for sport work. Cost them $400 and they love him to death. They just had a baby and sent me pictures of the dog licking and sleeping next to the baby. Good dogs are out there.

They adopted a GSD from rescue about 6 months back. They called me over to evaluate the dog. It acted similar to your dog, but not quite as bad. I went into the house and when I turned my back, the dog almost bit me in the ass. Could I have made that dog safe to be around people? Probably, but my sister in-law was pregnant so I told them to send the dog back. The lady at the rescue was all pissed off and told my brother I didn't know what I was talking about and I didn't know GSD's as well as she did. He didn't bother telling her about my experience and just politley apologized for it not working out.

I have a big issue with rescue people who put nerve bag dogs into pet homes. They care more about "saving" dogs than the do about the people they put the dogs with. Not saying all of them do but the vast majority I have met often do. But I digress. That is a whole other discussion.

I will say again good luck to you and hope it turns out for te best.

Get a Real Dog~

I think you have an excellet response!  I too have been wondering if putting this dog into a rescue would be a bad idea!  Don't get me wrong, I think rescue is important(that is for those of you who may not agree with what I am saying).  But, most rescue groups are full of soft hearted people who are not so experienced in handeling a dog like this one!  I think rescue is setting this dog up to biter at a different home!

Vickie

www.PowerHausKennels.com

sheesh I leave for the day and all hell breaks loose on here, and me not here to respond. Let me see if I can answer everything satisfactoraly and in order. Probably not

Dawg- While I appreciate your comments about my son and home life and your opinion and advice, you are offbase here. There is no longer tension because of Tino, they are kept completely seperate and neither bothers with the other. My son has been my whole life for the last 15 years, he is growing up and has a life outside of mommy, We manage his condition as best as we are able and things are working out. I have 4 other children that I raised on my own to be very responsible caring individuals so I dont think I am making things "About myself" Just get the dog out of there?? ANd what do you suggest? DUmping him? In this community, the local spca does not take in pets much less dogs with issues, it is a group of approx 5 volunteers that push for spay/neuter and the occasional fostering when they have room. A GSD rescue would put him down, period. If there are alternative options that are agreeable then why euthanize? I came here for advice because of the experience on the board, I do not have people to advise me around here.

Don, I never said Justin would be gone in 2 years, altho if he is accepted by the college he will dorm there since he is graduating early. I said he would most likely be gone in 3 years, his plan anyways. I never said a dog pinning his ears etc was couragous, I equated that with a horse pinning their ears, when they do you better watch out because they are going to react, either by kicking, biting or bucking.

Agar- I have contacted the only people I know, the 2 previous breeders/owners. As stated before, I may be able to take him back to the previous owner, I do not know yet. I am talking with the trainer/handler/breeder that trains for shutzhund, protection and other areas for evaluation. He will not give me advice by email or phone due to liability issues. He is an experienced handler/trainer so I am doing my best to coordinate our schedules to get Tino to him for a Proffesional opinion.

GRD- I would never shoot a dog, unless Me or my family was in immediate peril and that was the only way to resolve the problem. It would be done by a vet.

LMH- Thank you for your opinion,advice and the courage to post a dissenting opinion on this board, that in itself took more courage than the greatest Shutzhund competitor, these folks can be viscious.

I still believe the right thing to do is find the best suited home for both the dog and person. Yes he has bonded to me and yes I know that GSD tend to be 1 person/family dogs once they bond. At his age, bouncing him home to home will end up with him being put down.

Therese

LMH-  It appears that you are the only one besides Shandra who seems to think this dog can be "saved", "trained" and given a chance so I'll tell ya what....why don't YOU help Shandra out and take the dog, put Tino in YOUR home, with YOUR family and train away.  Then after a couple months get back to us and tell us if Tino is a "new dog".  I mean think about what you are telling this woman....you're telling someone new and inexperienced with training a "normal" dog let alone a nerve bag to try to work with him.  Why give this woman false hopes that she could do it.  It would be next to impossible for an experienced trainer to do, what makes you think Shandra could do this with limited knowledge??  I may have seemed insensitive but that's because the answer to her question was simple and answered by more than a dozen different people who don't have nothing to gain by offering their advice.  If you disagree with the rest of us then as I said- knock your socks off and take Shandra's dog to train it yourself.

Yes LMH: My clan has some hard headed males and females all who have been imprinted when they were 4 -8 weeks old and all gone thru major obedience and I have never had a nervey dog or an indicisive dog...My gsd are all clear headed, stand at attention with ears alert, know who they are and what I expect with them....

The difference in me and Shandra,,,,,I am experience and been taught by the best, and I dont know it all, but when Larry Filo and David Moore put in my hands my first gsd, they trained me first....and then its been 20 years of learning....

I gave my decisions on this post as to my reading of an animal...That is what I have spent the last 10 years of my gsd training and schutzhund work doing....my reputation as "The Canine Lady " didnt come by not being able to listen on paper or on the phone , less than 5 mins to a person and able to diagnos the problem with the dog and the handler and in this case Shandra...

The hardest dog I own would be able to be corrected by me, because six trainers over 15 years have drilled me and Adrian Ledda is but a phone call away if I get stumped.....If I cant be of some help to her, then I better hang it up...My years of doing this, I owe to many in the Schutzhind clubs and the excellent breeders that were my mentors.....Shandra needs a dog she can trust and read and learn to train...not someones bad problem , and that is the first thing David Moore and my first trainers  taught me,,,,,do not let a dog learn bad habits.....start the correct training on a gsd,, and if you learn the right way, you dont have to spend countless hours retraining what someone messed up..

And I have learned a valueable lesson also,,,,,Not every gsd is trainable ,  and that pedigress some   TH mimikers" show these innocent buyers of gsds is not any indication of a good gsd....

Shandra has received valuable info from several true trainers and gsd owners here... a lot of owners do not believe in kennel, crates, or positive training,  ,,,,shandra can take all of this info and form her own opionion.   We give it   she decides...all was done here by mostly experienced  people that have had extensive training and hours of on the job experience....Since I eat, breathe, drink and no sleep it, I qualify for that PHD in the behavioural training of the gsd.