For The Masses - Page 10

WOW

GoldenElk.  You suck hun, lol.  I can't believe you said the things you said.  Go hide in a hole will ya!

I find this thread to be quite amazing.

Golden Elk's choice of words are not always the most judicious but I cannot construe what she says to be remotely demeaning to our troops. I am perhaps older than many on this forum but I recall the very same accusations being levelled against those who opposed the war in Vietnam. Today, it is generally accepted that that war was founded on false premises - namely that the domino theory would result in all neighboring countries becoming Communist. But by the time that war ended we had lost 65,000 of our young men and women - and left tens of thousands severely wounded physically and mentally. I know the toll that war took - a close friend blew his brains out, after his return, as he was not able to cope after being traumatized as a result of events on the battlefield.

I support the troops without reservation and nothing that I say should be construed to be critical of the tremendous job they are doing in Afghanistan and Iraq. But the war waged in Iraq will turn out to be one of the greatest foreign policy fiasco's in US history. A war which was started on a false premise - that there were WMD and that Iraq was a danger to the US. We correctly trust our leaders when they say that there is a foreign threat - how else can we do otherwise. Sadly, our leaders don't live up to our ideals - Bush's disingenuousness in the case of Iraq and LBJ's in the case of the Gulf of Tonkin resolution which was the rationale for escalating the war in Vietnam.

Fanaticism of any kind invariably breeds hate and Islamic fanaticism is no exception. The question is how does one deal with the problem to make sure that it does not spread. I don't claim to know the answer. But what I can say is that inflaming Muslim public opinion by occupying an Arab country only breeds more fanaticism. We have seen this in the case of Iraq - a country which was ruled by a despot - but which was secular - is now a base for Al Qaeda and is also now in the axis of Iran which is dominated by the Shia and is viewed as hostile to the US.

As far as many of the recruits in our armed forces being part of the lower strata of the socio-economic group, quite frankly that is a reality and has been for decades. This is not a knock against these recruits - it is an economic necessity in some cases. To pretend otherwise is ludicrous. Now this is not to suggest that these recruits are intellectually inferior in anyway. From the link shown below:

"Many of today's recruits are financially strapped, with nearly half coming from lower-middle-class to poor households, according to new Pentagon data based on Zip codes and census estimates of mean household income. Nearly two-thirds of Army recruits in 2004 came from counties in which median household income is below the U.S. median."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/03/AR2005110302528_pf.html

Also, check out how many of our senators and representatives have their children in the armed forces - or for that matter member of the Administration. To the best of my knowledge it is just a handful or thereabouts.

Kenny, stay safe and thank you for your unstinting service to our country.

Miss Life is Easy,

I have no issues with those who express their disillusionment, their anger, or even their hatred of the war in Iraq.  This is an opinon to be respected, so long as it is not directed at those responsible, the politicians, and not directed at who are risking their lives serving their country.

You are being willfully blind, to not see GE's words as being demeaning to our military serving and risking their lives in Iraq.

Our service men and women are protecting our country, no matter what agendas our politicians may have going on in Washington.  Protecting our country is their hearts.  What is in YOUR heart?

At first I wrote to show the contempt expressed, the vulgar disrespect, the disreguard of the risk to life for those who are serving far away from home, the snobbery directed at those who are from a lower economic status who are serving in our military...and then I erased it all.  I believe you are being disingenious.  There is no reason to respond to you when you are not being honest.

Instead, I will post a beautiful poem.  God bless those who are in the US Military.

It is the soldier, not the reporter,                                                    
who has given us freedom of the press.                                                         
It is the soldier, not the poet,                                                       
who has given us freedom of speech.                                                            
It is the soldier,                                                       
not the campus organizer,                                                               
who has given us                                                                         
the freedom to demonstrate.                                                                    

It is the soldier who salutes the flag,                                                             
who serves beneath the flag,                                                             
and whose coffin is draped by the flag,                                                          
who allows the protester to burn the flag.  
                                                 
Father Denis O'Brien of the United States Marine Corp

lifeisbeautiful:  so what would you have us do about the fanatical muslim problem, hmmm?

Maybe if we stick our heads in the sand like an ostrich, the problem will go away.

Maybe if we say were sorry that we don't live our lives like they insist we do, they will leave us alone.

Maybe if we don't "take the war to them", they will come here (as they did first) and we can save some money on gas we would have to use getting there.

Maybe if we kiss their asses, they will not kill us this year, and do it next year.

Maybe if we just leave them alone, they will just leave us alone (yea, right).

I understand that many think that we had no business going to Iraq, but the fact of the matter is, we are going to have to go to the places we are already and a lot more, or we will be hit and run, many times over the years.  What did you think they would do if we went after them in Afghanistan, not slide over to the neighboring country to avoid us?  Stand and fight like men (no, they use children and women)?

We are eventually going to have to go to Iran, Syria, Lebanon and maybe even Saudia Arabia and kick their butts, or it will never end.  What don't you understand about "it is their religion that there is no greater glory, no greater reward in heaven, than to die fighting US"?  Get your head out of the sand.

Get real, all of you Bush haters.  George Bush is saving ours necks.  I guess you think that it is just luck that we haven't been hit since 911, and that everything our government is doing (which is a lot more than you and I know, I am positive) is just nonsense and not necessary?  Does anyone really think that we can be at war (declared against us first, by Bin Laden, Iran and Iraq, yes, Iraq) without losing some soldiers?  What are you, stupid?  Do you have sand in your eyes and ears?  They hate us.  They want us dead.  They have vowed to Allah to kill us or die trying.  One more time so it gets through that sand in your ears: THEY HAVE VOWED TO ALLAH TO KILL US OR DIE TRYING.

Beam me up Scotty, there is no intelligent life here.  Geesh.

....So much for requesting big mouth Veronica back up her accusations with an actual critical argument, instead you resort to emotionalism and EXTRA LARGE FONTS, typical of someone who's point of argument is transparent and really can't stand up to debate. I see your pattern of thinking also involves assuming that someone is spoiled or has had an easy life if they A) have not served in the armed forces B) do not have a child who has served in the armed forces C) have the nerve to not fall behind popular political opinion and instead express criticism for the politicians who control the armed forces. I think you have appointed yourself a martyr of some sort because of your son's choice to serve. In a way you remind me of a beauty pageant mother, living vicariously through your child. Stop looking for insult where there is none, YOU look desperate for attention woman, not the other way around. I think YOUR tone of voice is disrespectful to your son's service. Save the emotionalism for the bastards who would abuse his bravery and patriotism.

Shepherd Woman - that was deep. Thanks.

Lifeisbeautiful - thank you for not being a coward.

Do Right - You are a perfect example of why tyrants like Bush and Chaney will bring this country to it's knees. Instead of reading and researching you believe the sensationalism flashed before your eyes via Fox News. You do realize that the Sauds and the Bush's are bed partners? That Saddam was an atheist? That he and Ben Laden were enemies? That the Sauds bred Ben Laden. If Chaney, Bush and Co. had not had their own personal agenda we would have been in AFGHANISTAN instead of Iraq. If American politicians had not prostituted themselves to the love of oil, we would have went after the SAUDS to retaliate for the devastating strike orchestrated by THEIR SON. Instead we are mired in Iraq in a life wasting war which has stirred up MORE blood thirsty fanatics. Bush isn't protecting us, he allowed the sale of one of the most highly trafficked American shipping ports...TO THE SAUDS! Only when it was seen as a major political blunder was the sale reversed. Bush has approved legislation to economical damage middle and working class people (most of YOU). ...why are you people afraid to say that the war is bogus and has nothing to do with actually protecting us? You think the men and black are going to take you away? That your ultra conservative friends will disown you? Who's the true coward? Are any of you aware that a bill was passed last week that allows for the wire tapping of ANY American without a warrant?

Rome is burning people, and it's not the corrupt politicians that are to blame, its the lazy American citizen, you that choose to forget about politics until an election is around the corner and then just vote however you pastor, your wife, your husband, your mommy or daddy or the emphatic political ads tell you to. Why won't you take the time to research your political leaders before handing them the wheel to the most powerful country on the planet in 2008, why don't you try having the back bone to not vote for a "political party" but instead, vote for a QUALIFIED individual. The Founding Fathers would be ashamed of this nation, it's leadership and it's citizens if they could stand up out of their graves today. They would call ALL of us cowards for allowing this country to be hijacked by those unfit to lead.

Veronica, this forum is inundated with posters who almost seek to be offensive to others and in that context Golden Elk's comments are almost mild in comparison. Her choice of language is not what I would employ - but that is neither here nor there. She did apologize to Kenny for something she said that was inappropriate.  I try to be civil in conversations whether in person or on the net. 

There is NOTHING that I said in my post that can be construed as remotely offensive to our troops. I have the utmost respect for them - they are doing their duty under difficult circumstances. IMO, they were sent to fight a war  of choice in Iraq which was waged under a false premise and then totally mismanaged. Waging war under false premises is not a Republican or Democrat issue - as I said in my last post, LBJ did the same thing  with regard to Vietnam when he obtained congressional approval using the Gulf of Tonkin resolution - which is now known to have been without basis. Yes, I cited a quote and provided a link that supports the fact that it is those in the lower socio-economic groups who join the armed forces and bear the brunt of the burden when it comes to fighting, sacrificing and dying for the country. This is a fact - and it does not demean those who do serve.

Your beautiful poem has one slight flaw to it: it is not the armed forces that provides/guarantees us the rights you cited - it is the Constitution. Our armed forces are there to help protect us and help make sure that these rights are not eroded - as is the judiciary.

Do Right, you are the perfect example of someone who chooses to be offensive when you cannot provide cogent arguments to support your position. I am not a "Bush hater" but I do feel that he got us into a war in Iraq which has created more problems than it has solved. His bravado, I find offensive - such as his remark to "bring it on". Never mind that when he had a chance to tell the Viet Cong to "bring it on" he chose to take the easy way out rather than to meet his obligation to serve in Vietnam. I have the utmost respect for his father who really understood foreign policy. Bush should have listened to Colin Powell who told him that invading Iraq would mean that we would "own "the problems that would result. I don't agree with those who say that we must withdraw right away - it would result in genocide and create another Afghanistan for terrorists to use as a base.

But then I understand why someone like you would admire Bush. You show the same type of foolish bravado that he does such as when you talk about invading Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia and you seemed to suggest Pakistan as well. Do you have even the remotest idea of what you are talking about? Our armed forces are already over-extended in Iraq and Afghanistan and you want to start more wars?  Pakistan has a leader who is one bullet away from leaving us with a nation, that is a nuclear power, that could be headed by Islamic fanatics in that nation - and all it needs is some trigger to start a firestorm there.

Attacking or occupying any country is the surest way of generating more enemies - this applies in spades when it comes to Muslim countries. The French learned this the hard way in the sixties Algeria where they lost thousands of lives before they realized they were in a no-win situation and withdrew.

Before you spout out more nonsense at least educate yourself about the countries, cultures and people you are choosing to invade. This is certainly something that Bush could have done. I was stunned when I read that he told Woodward that the did not realize, until after he authorized the invasion of Iraq, that Muslims consist of two major groups - the Sunni and Shia who have been at each others throats for 1200 years. Therein lies part of the problem in Iraq - except Bush acknowledges he had no idea about this until after we invaded!

I don't pretend to know how to deal with the problem of Islamic extremism but what I do know is that there are approximately 1.5 billion Muslims world-wide. If 1% of this number were fanatics who would be suicide bombers, etc, that is 15 million people who are potential fodder for use against us. Anything that we do which is likely to incite Muslims to become extremists will be  counter-productive and will boomerang against us.

It would behove you to follow Mark Twain's admonition:

"It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt. "

Can we get back to dogs????  I believe this political rant should be taken privately or to a political message board.  I keep hoping this thread will return to it's orginal subject...breeding.  How about a new debate

Two dogs both SchH III average drives OFA excellent

Two dogs both SchH III superior drives and workability OFA Fair

Which puppy from which parents would you pick?  Me.....the latter JMO

Karmen