HD x-rays - opinions wanted - Page 7

I own the dog in the second xray - Gsdfan has posted.  I would be interested in your opinions on her hips?  I just had a senior dog - suffer with hd during her final years.  In the last 8 mos of her life it was pretty severe and I am just wondering if that is what I should expect from this dog as well.  I am only giving her glucosamine at this point - she is six.  Is there something else I should be giving her?  I am also trying to reduce her weight and I swim her and try to walk her every day.  The vet just told me she has hd and she would not pass ofa.  The xrays were taken while she was being spayed about 2.5 years ago.   Any comments, or advice would be appreciated.

Cheryl

Louise - from what I see in your x-rays I would say that it does make a different if a dog is put under for the x-ray or not. What do you think?

Hi DH,

I have been OFA certifying dogs since its inception in the mid-late 60's. My first GSD was OFA GS-4!

With a really good vet and good equipment, I think that anesthesia makes no significant difference and is not worth it's inherent risks. Sometimes, additional shots may be required for ideal positioning. However, with use of proper "bone technique" (which requires very little radiation--low KVp-- when compared to "soft tissue technique"), a tad more exposure to radiation is much safer than use of general anesthesia--JMHO.

I once asked veterinary radiologist Joe Morgan (formerly read for the OFA--taught at the Veterinary Medical Teaching Hospital at UC-Davis) his thoughts. He replied that no amount of anesthesia would improve the xrays of a displastic dog and that poor positioning (without anesthesia) could possibly make an OFA "excellent" dog appear "good", etc. Big deal--considering that the SV's A2 (a "normal") encompasses OFA "excellent", "good", and "fair"

Incidently, the radiology department at the UC-Davis VMTH does not anesthetize dogs for either OFA or "a" stamp radiographs (which are submitted to the SV). At best, the technician may take the "edge" off dogs with a little diluted acepromazine (1 mg/ml--very short acting) given IV prior to taking radiographs.

Veterinarians who insist that xraying without anesthesia amounts to "cheating" are full of BS and merely wish to pad the bill, IMO. Breeders are willing to drive for miles/hours to a good vet who will xray without anesthesia. While my own German bloodlines dogs are never anesthetized (perhaps are made a little cooperative with a little IM or IV acepromazine) and are all a "normal" and OFA "good" and "excellent" (and consistently have clear elbows), the dogs I've sold to other people whose vets do use anesthesia yield the same positive results.

FYI, I xray dogs hips/elbows at 6 months, "a" stamp at 12 months, and OFA hips/elbows at 2-3 years. I have known this particular family of dogs (at least, those from this "side of the pond") for six generations. They are known for their orthopedic soundness and for ZW scores in the 70"s. I've found my xray protocol to be very reliable--the normal youngsters at six months are always normal as adults.

Louise - from what I see in your x-rays I would say that it does make a different if a dog is put under for the x-ray or not. What do you think?

Hi DH,

I have been OFA certifying dogs since its inception in the mid-late 60's. My first GSD was OFA GS-4!

With a really good vet and good equipment, I think that anesthesia makes no significant difference and is not worth it's inherent risks. Sometimes, additional shots may be required for ideal positioning. However, with use of proper "bone technique" (which requires very little radiation--low KVp-- when compared to "soft tissue technique"), a tad more exposure to radiation is much safer than use of general anesthesia--JMHO.

I once asked veterinary radiologist Joe Morgan (formerly read for the OFA--taught at the Veterinary Medical Teaching Hospital at UC-Davis) his thoughts. He replied that no amount of anesthesia would improve the xrays of a displastic dog and that poor positioning (without anesthesia) could possibly make an OFA "excellent" dog appear "good", etc. Big deal--considering that the SV's A2 (a "normal") encompasses OFA "excellent", "good", and "fair"

Incidently, the radiology department at the UC-Davis VMTH does not anesthetize dogs for either OFA or "a" stamp radiographs (which are submitted to the SV). At best, the technician may take the "edge" off dogs with a little diluted acepromazine (1 mg/ml--very short acting) given IV prior to taking radiographs.

Veterinarians who insist that xraying without anesthesia amounts to "cheating" are full of BS and merely wish to pad the bill, IMO. Breeders are willing to drive for miles/hours to a good vet who will xray without anesthesia. While my own German bloodlines dogs are never anesthetized (perhaps are made a little cooperative with a little IM or IV acepromazine) and are all a "normal" and OFA "good" and "excellent" (and consistently have clear elbows), the dogs I've sold to other people whose vets do use anesthesia yield the same positive results.

FYI, I xray dogs hips/elbows at 6 months, "a" stamp at 12 months, and OFA hips/elbows at 2-3 years. I have known this particular family of dogs (at least, those from this "side of the pond") for six generations. They are known for their orthopedic soundness and for ZW scores in the 70"s. I've found my xray protocol to be very reliable--the normal youngsters at six months are always normal as adults.

I would probably breed to dog 1 the cupping is better and I don't notice any issues with the femur heads as in dog 2. Head is in the socket sufficient, I'd like to see it tighter fit though. Sometimes you just have to weigh those things. If it was Asko vd Lutter I would breed to him but if the dog wasn't super special in my eyes or a perfect match for my female, I'd pass.

Dog 2 has too many irregularities. I wouldn't use this dog personally. The one hip is obviously worse than the other, neither are deep enough for my taste. I'm not going to research the proper terms right now, so bare with me. The cup holding the sockets in, are different as well as the balls. It looks like changes have happened and damages been done inside the socket from the irregular ball head. I can't comment on thickening of the bones like others have stated. I think if it was my dog I would have got another x-ray taken too. This dog was 1yr I think DH said. I would expect wear like this on a much older dog. The right hip scares me too much and the left is kinda blurry. I can't make a real comment on that side, except to say it is seated better than the right side.

Renofan2 her hips look similar to my girl who just passed in June at 12 years and 4 months. She was xrayed at 3 years, I didn't send them in either, my vet said severe. As a young dog I never would have guessed it possible. She also had fistulas and when she was 10 she seemed very depressed, her hips bothered her as well as the fistulas. I sometimes did not know what was worse. My vet called one night and suggested we try Pred, she had heard from someone in WA they had good luck treating fistulas that way. I felt she was on her last leg so worth a try. Originally she went on a high dose of 20 mgs daily. With that  dose came alot of the side effects. I gradually backed her off until she was on 5mgs daily. The only side effect then was she loved to eat ! No excess drinking or peeing, panting etc. The pred helped her hips as well reducing the inflamation. She again had the spark in her eye and desire to go do things. She was good until the very end. I think Pred in certain situations when there is nothing else can be a good drug of choice.The only other things that you might try besides Glucosomine IMO might be MSM and a grain free diet. Grain is suppose to aggrevate arthritis. Hope that helps some...

Lots of natural VIt C and vit E and raw meats and veggies added to her dog food without any grains     Yes Renofan   

Trailrider was correct   not grains...

Trailrider: Thanks for the suggestions..  I will look into improving her diet.  I currently feed my dogs Royal Canin GSD Food and will check the ingredients.  I have been thinking of introducing a raw diet for my dogs, and I guess now is the time.  Luckily Libby will eat anything - loves baby carrots and potatos too.  Just wasn't sure how bad Libby's hips were compared to others.  I never xrayed Reno, so was unaware she had bad hips until she turned 10 or 11.  I guess it is better to be aware so I can do all I can to minimize her discomfort, but must say it was nice not worrying about Reno for most of her life.  I will discuss in more detail with my vet during her next exam.  Reno was on Pred and Medcam the last year of her life, so I won't be opposed to doing that for Libby when the time comes.   Like your girl Trailrider - you would never have known Libby had hd either.  She was so active and could scale a 6 foot fence with ease and at 6 still shows no signs of discomfort.   I guess I was hoping someone was going to look at the xrays and say my vet made a mistake and they look fine.

Thanks again,

C 

There are a lot of studies about Vit c helping hips  hd     but it comes from raw meat and  veggies  and raw milk...not from pills    unless you order a     Natural Vit c   made from vegatable form only.....the rest are chemicals...you must give her mega dose of vit C

Ill email you the link  when I can find it...

Yellowrose:  Thank you. 

This has been a great thread and so informative.

C

As for if I would breed to the top 2 xrays, I think I would but would use a dog with a better hip rating and if everything else about the dog was good. Definately on the OFA excellents!!