NASS commentary - Page 9

Where the dog is born is the so-called definition we have right now. But it is obviously flawed. While the United States and certain other countries extend citizenship to anyone who happens to nbe born in their country, the analogy does not appl;y to dog breeding because people are not breeders in the sense that they are trying to improve the breed or create a certain type within the breed etc.

Breeding is animal husbandry. The breeders of cattle, and other animals, in the case of dogs, one could site the Australian Cattle Dog among many examples, breeders may import specimen from other courntries but then they proceed to create a breed line in their own country. They do not continually ship their animals back to another country to be bred or constantly bring in foreign animals for each breeding.

So, yes it matters a great deal where the parents were bred. Otherwise, all you have is a breeding program which consists of using the airlines to fly the mother to your country for birthing purposes.

What about the grandparents then?  Or the great grandparents?

If the parents to the dog in question are AKC registered and live in the US and are bred in the US (by AKC rules/standards) the dog is then American Bred.  If the Sire or Dam were imported & AKC registered BEFORE the breeding took place then the puppies resulting are American Bred.

Whether or not the parents are grandparents were BORN here is not important.  We are recognizing AMERICAN BRED ... ie dogs bred (the act of breeding) in America.

We shouldn't be giving trophies for females who head to Germany to be bred and labeling them "bred in America".

Vonwaldhimmel writes

"We shouldn't be giving trophies for females who head to Germany to be bred and labeling them "bred in America".

Agreed, but that is exactly what we are doing now. Take the NASS Sieger Teejay. I don't think his father Nero v Nobachtal came to America and got registered with the AKC and then had a breeding with Henkel's female. Yet according to the GSDCA-WDA, Teejay is "American Bred". Of course, this is a sad commentary on the American GSD breeding scene if this qualifies as American bred.  We might as well all throw in the towel and just import dogs from Germany all of the time, which is what a lot, though not all, are doing. Julie Martinez comes to mind as someone who has created a line and often uses her American bred dogs for her breeding program.

But have a look at the NASS results which I finally got a hold of. According to the GSDCA-WDA the following top dogs are American bred in the working classes:

Males----VA1 Teejay---father German VA5 Nero v Nobachtal , VA5. Quartz v Wustenberger-Land--father German V Xaro d Ulmental, VA6 Riccor v Salerno---father German VA2 Hill v Farbenspiel, VA8 Gorbi v Kirchenwald---father German VA5 Quirin v Hochmoor, V1 Yasso v Mittelwest II--father German V Stano v Hasenborn, V4 Santo vd Neuen Welt---father American V Drago v Huerta Hof, V6 Nikolas v Wurstenberger-Land---father German V Urban v Gleisenauer Schloss, V8 Galaxy v Ajaye---father German VA1 Ursus v Batu

Females--VA2 Vegas v Mittelest---father American Romeo v Mittelwest,  VA5 Jazmin v Wurstenberger-Land---father German VA1 Pakros d Ulmental,  VA6 Natasha v Mittelwest---father German V James v Turkenkopf, VA7 Emmy of My BodyGuard---father German SG  Xando von der Elfenbeinschlucht, V5 Emily v Mittelwest---father Danish at German Sieger Show V Wildmarkens Tito, V6 Tyra v Wihlendorf---father German V Wallace v Agrigento, V7 Paris v Wihlendorf---father Danish at German Sieger Show V1Karats Yoker, V8 Rhaposodie v Wihlendorf---father German V Alex v Farbenspiel

These are the so-called top American bred dogs, but only 2 of them actually have a father born in the US (VA2 Vegas v Mittelwest and V4 Santo vd Neuen Welt)

In my opinion, this does not say much for America other than the fact that we can buy German dogs, bring them over here, but apparently once here, we cannot make anything from them that is worth breeding to, because judging from the above, we keep going back to Germany for almost every breeding. I do not think we can call ourselves American breeders if we do this, we are simply customers going to Germany.

Until such time as we recognize the efforts of breeders who bring dogs here, and then create a real American breeding program, we are just kidding ourselves. As it is now, there is no incentive for a breeder to do that since we do not recognize such an effort.

As for how far back should we go, I don't think we need to impose the Nuremburg Laws. It is enough if both parents were born in the US, registered in the US, preferably titled in the US and the breeding takes place in the US.

Our bloodline pool isn't strong enough to do that and still be competitive in the rest of the world yet. Face it, there is a much broader spectrum of bloodlines available over the pond. We're getting there, but not there YET. Keep importing great dogs, breeding them wisely, and competing with them. We have made great strides in the last ten years, but we're not quite "there" yet, and may never be, given the geographics of our great country.

SS

I got a different take on this z wart..

The dog Teejay's mother was bred by Henkel. That would make Teejay second generation from his reproduction program. You did not mention that. All you talked about was who the fathers were... What about the motherlines?

Who cares where the father resides, if a breeder does the best thing for his/her reproduction program sending the female to the best male would seem to be the correct thing to do..  How many generations does the breeder have to have his/her kennel name before it is ok?

Zwart, can I ask if you are a breeder of American Show Shepherds? Because they are really the only dogs that I would think meet your idea of American bred.. Right or wrong?

Hundguy, I am neither a breeder nor a fan of the old style AKC American shepherds. I am a fan of the fine dogs which the Germans produce and have owned dogs out of several well-known top German dogs. But I am a believer that we can produce such dogs here. I have no problem with Americans going to Germany  for breedings to improve their lines. What I do have a problem with is that it is happening for almost every breeding. Read my earlier post more closely and you will see I said that. There is no reason not to use the best German blood to improve our lines from time to time, but not all of the time if we want to create an American breeding program and say we are American breeders.

Take the Wilhendorf kennel. By now, they should not have the need to breed to so many German dogs given all of the good dogs they have imported and some of the fine dogs they have produced from them over the past 10-12  years. But their dogs born over in the US are not used so much. (although I expect Teejay will be used more than most because he went double sieger). They have had lots of fine males born in the US, but they continue to send their females back to Germany on a regular basis. Why? Because you cannot compete on a level playing field when the judges are German with dogs that have American parents. Also, you cannot sell the puppies as easily . If you don't believe this, just look at the advertisements  in Dog World and elsewhere. Find one where the dog has an American born father. These two factors are probably the most important factors driving this practice

Shelly: I disagree with you that the bloodlines in the US are too thin. In the past 20 years many, many fine dogs have been imported to the US and for the most part they have not been used very much. (I could create a long list of well-known dogs including many VAs, high Vs and even a few Siegers but why waste the space, this is an accepted fact) But beyond this, and more importantly, we have had 100s if not 1000s of breedings that have taken place in Germany and the puppies are whelped here. Surely by now we should have strong blood line possibilities and, the fact is, we probably do, but no one wants to use them because that is not the name of the game and you cannot come up front with one.

The so called international sport of (read German and not AKC) GSD conformation showing is a peculiar sport. The English invented the sports of soccer and cricket but other nations have taken them up and now the English rarely win in international competition. But showing is a subjective sport and in German style showing, we confine ourselves to German judges who take it for granted that German dogs are the best (exceptions made for rich foreigners who buy and or breed from German stock but leave the dog in Germany full time, the Italians are the best example of this). The game would change overnight if our shows were only for dogs who had 2 American born parents or if we at least recognized and honored this. That is not asking very much. I am not asking for more than just the parents, that is a good start, not the grandparents etc. If we don't do this, it never will change and we will always be nothing more than customers. As it is, we are playing a German sport, with German rules, refererfeed by German judges who are partial to their own dogs or at least dogs that live full time in Germany. How can we ever compete, regardless of quality (which I believe we already have) if we play this game

There are those who bred to German studs because that is the best dog for the bitch and there are those who breed to German dogs because they "think" German studs are superior. I can't say for show lines because I don't follow them anymore but there are plenty of very good working line studs here in the US. I feel confident enough in what we have here in the working lines, that rarely would I think sending bitched abroad is "needed."

Sure a person who imports a bitch is smart to have her bred to a stud before she comes over, as you may not have that opportunity again and fresh blood is good to bring in when you can. However I frown on those who believe they should send there bitches overseas every breeding.