working dog prices?? - Page 5

hi silbersee...not my desire nor intent to go head to head with an established breeder...but i can assure you that nothing about me or my involvment with dogs is"SAD"!!! i enjoy my dogs in my own little way....the original post was for puppy prices..2500.00 for a pup..never happen with me!so my dogs aren't titled...no biggie,they're still cool to me!i'v encountered many people who were new to the sport(work or show) "bitten by the bug" and jumped into buying a high-dollar dog,only to be marginally satisified or totally disapointed.... after 4 years in the navy(viet nam era vet) and 31 years in the merchant marine(3 war zones)have given me a relative "thick-skin"but there's nothing "SAD"about me!!!! i applaud your efforts and goals,i was able to view your site and you do indeed have an impressive breeding program! i have no idea what you charge for a pup...surely it outta my league,but i still think a workable pup can be purchased for much less than what the majority of the big guys charge...i wish you continued success with your program!

All GSDs bred under SV type rules are show dogs! Stop fooling yourself. To pass a breed test they must have a show rating. That makes every one of them a show dog. So this whole thread started with a faulty premise.

My opinion why the GSDs have prices so high is because there is such a small percentage of puppies that will be suitable working dogs when they are adults. Rare things are worth more than more common things. If you doubt what I’m saying go out and price a "working" Doberman puppy and get back to me.

 First off, Max is dead! And Word and Picture was not carried from the mountain by Moses. The world has changed and that book was written almost a century ago. Would you go to a doctor that was taught using century old text? Hell, would you use a plumber that learned from a century old text. The times have changed. The place has changed.  Why can’t you change? You accept the notion that there is a working line and a showline GSD. I’m sure that Max would be spinning in his grave about that. He would never accept two lines. Yet you do? He hated for dogs to be kenneled and thought that a dog should stay with his master. Yet people ship their dogs off to be titled and everyone seems to accept it. Some GSD people remind me of girls on the Maury Povich show that are testing a half dozen guys, to find out which one is her baby’s daddy, that then screams that it’s against her religion to get an abortion. Why wasn’t she at church instead of screwing half the town?

I just had to blow off a little steam before I went to sleep. I’m a Malinois person and most times find it slightly amusing to hear this BS but today it got to me.

HUH?  Max did not seperate the breed into working and show - the Martins did during their years as President(s) of the SV - Max said the dog should work.  the dog should have stucture suited to the work.  And that the dog should be a family member who protected the family.

A show rating does not make a dog like Asko v d Lutter or Stormfronts Brawnson or Bastin Koketal a "show dog" any more than a Sch3 makes Teejay or Ghandi or Uran Wildsteigerland a "working dog".  The requirements for breed worthiness address both structure and workability - that is the "ideal", no matter how politics and varying interpretations and day to day reality affect the present, the ideal is still to create a dog where both structure and working ability are in one package.

Prices? You pay more now for importing with shipping and exchange rates.  But bringing in a pup means both parents ARE titled, ARE koered, and usually the breeder has some idea of what he should be getting in the litter.  Here, pretty much anyone who has a female is breeder no matter if she is titled, conformation rated, has clear hips or LOL even registered! or not.

$1500-1800 for a working line pup from parents who are titled, koered, have records of not just physiologically being able to reproduce, but where there are even older pups out of either/both who are working or titled is IMO reasonable.   Show pups, lets face it, breeders keep the best to show, and many go to pet homes where money is not the issue.

for 4-5  grand - you can get a young promising male under 2 or schh1 dog with ability to finish titles

"Have you ever calculated how much will cost a working dog during all his life?

Let's say 8 yars (around 100 months).Food, Vet , training, trials, trips, etc.....

The iniial pice does not make much diference at all."

I beg to differ. If the dog isn't good enough to train, trial and breed then you could have yourself a $2500 or more pet. Eek! God willing he doesn't turn up dysplastic on top of it all.

Quote: A show rating does not make a dog like Asko v d Lutter or Stormfronts Brawnson or Bastin Koketal a "show dog" ...

Good structure is proved in the work not in the show ring. All the show ring proves is that your dog can trot, not run, in a left circle and stand still. If criminals and sheep only trotted in left circles and stood still, maybe it would be valid.

It may also show that a handler knows how to curry favor with a judge. But let’s stick to the dogs for now.

Why does a dog need a show rating? Couldn’t the judge at the breed test also decide if the dog looked enough like a GSD to pass the breed test? Better yet a strong argument could be made that no breed test is needed at all. If a breeder can’t tell if the dog they have is breed worthy or not, they have no business breeding.

When you make so many hurdles like breed test, health certifications, shows, trials, you don’t make the dogs any better. What you make is a system where the hurdle is lowered so that more dogs can pass. Why is the helperwork so much softer at the conformation shows than it is at the schutzhund trials? And you make a system that once a person has jumped all of the hurdles they have invested so much that many feel that either the dogs is instantly breed worthy or they must breed the dog to recoup their investment.

If you want to find a model of what I’m writing about study the Border Collie and the Malinois. These breeds have none of these hurdles, better health than GSDs, a higher percentage work and cost one third of the price. Why dose it work in those breeds? Can’t a similar model work in the GSD?

My sister is buying a portuguese water dog -- parents are not titled -- min price for a pup is $2000.

The world doesn't make much sense...

Christopher Smith...You are onpoint with your analysis and nonelitest attitude.

Chris and Ort See, ...There are divisions in the shepherd world and both of you are knowledgable in your area. Chris, I respect your work with showlines and your long standing relationship with Richard and Gerd Dexel. The Dexels are people who truly have bred for the total dog. In the conformation realm at this point 2500 dollars is reasonable as faras the norm is considered. Ort See is being very humble about his knowledge. He is one of the very knowledgable people about workinglines, trains in one of the premier clubs in the country for Sch, and the litters he has bred has produced nice working dogs. His knowledge of correct GS temperament is superior ,which, is a necessity for breeding. I know both of you personally and more important your work in terms of dogs produced, and both of you are assets to breeding quality GS. If I wanted a conformation dog I wouldn't hesitate getting one from you Chris at your price and if I wanted a workingline dog I wouldn't hesitate to get one from Ort See at any reasonable price.  

I wonder why we do not find these differences in prices in the UK?

I am not sure people are comparing apple to apples here, when you look at Kraftwerks breedings, you see all bread surveyed, SchH III titles dogs for 4 generations, I am certain that kind of quality does not come cheap.  When you compare to others that might have one titled parent, or Out of a famous grandsire that was a SchH III, not sure you can compare pricing to a proven line for 4 generations of working dogs to those that have a title working dog somewhere in 4 generations.

You can still get a pup from titled Kkl parents, both sch3, sire world and national (US, BSP or other country) dog and dam with titled pups for $1500-2000.  Go look at GSD world net - pups there for sale, people with pups have posts.   With the exchange rate, 700 euro = $1000+, then shipping, customs broker is going to be another $1000.

Chris - I do agree that sucess in work and soundness = good structure.  And that is pretty much what the working lines are awarded - Good or Very good.  However, the AD, the hip rating are also required for a KKL.  All the elements are there.  I admire those who follow the system, and even though nothing is 100% perfect, the title and koer system is superior to doing NOTHING.