working dog prices?? - Page 6

My issue with imports is not have my hands personally on the animal, I would rather pay 500.00 more and be able to do some eval on the puppies then pay a few hundred less and have a complete surprise arrive at the dock, where am I wrong here??

Gefahr,

I can understand that you want to see and evaluate your puppy personally, but if you are so worried about breeders here in the U.S. and money is not an option, why don't you fly over to Germany yourself and look at puppies over there? That is one option you could consider. If you let me know which stud dogs you wish to consider I can look up the contacts for you at SID (the SV show and breeding news), which I subscribe to. It tells you which breeders bred their females to what stud dogs and when.

Yes, a lot of breeders here in the U.S. breed untitled dogs and boast about the accomplishments of the ancestors, but there are still a lot who do not. I am not going to get into it again, I have said enough on that subject and maybe should not have. To each their own!  I have learned that you cannot educate people who do not wish to be and who want to find more excuses for doing what they do. But it is not true that other breeders do not have the same lines (your apple to apple comparison - see above) than Kraftwerk.  I mentioned my black workingline litter above (same sire in Germany as Kraftwerk's S-litter), yet I sold my puppies for exactly half the price. My puppies are spoken for and I think that the new owners will be as thrilled with them as we are. You need to do your homework. You mentioned Jim Hill. I have known him for more years than I care to remember (my age is creeping up, lol). He has always had a great breeding program for working dogs. Another one in the same vicintiy is Shelley Strohl. You could have had one of her puppies by V-Carol. I personally think that Kraftwerk's secret for sucessfully selling theses puppies at inflated prices is that not too many workingline breeders bother to take their females back to Europe for breedings, but rather breed locally. The reasons might be that it is a matter of finances (very costly to do so, please see my above post) and priority (as long as the male bites well etc. etc.). There are a couple of other breeders I could recommend if you are looking into import litters: One is Dean Calderon who takes his females back to Germany on a regular basis and the other one is Sue DiCero and her husband who is also a top competitor.

Chris

Chris

If my plane could make it to Germany without taking the northern route I probably would go to Germany, flying commercial is such a joke anymore.  The game has changed, I fully understand what you are saying, my last two GSD came from a breeder in the south Stuart Harvard, and I just had to put down my last male from him after 15 years, and now looking for another dog to start competing again.  It seems that its the inflated prices that Wayne charge that seems to bother everyone, and you are correct I could go do the touchy feely thing in Germany, however, Wayne's kennel is a few hours flight for me and about equal distance from Jim Hill's place and i would not hesitate to fly back to either place if there were issues, dealing with someone face to face is much different that over the phone. The other issue I see is I do not speak or read (just a few phrases the military teaches you to get by) the language and would have to take someone I trusted of wich I know noone at this time.  Please beleive me I have been researching lines for the last several months since my dog passed away, Speaking with people I trust and reading everything I could get my hands on.  So many show lines around here in which I have no interest. 

However your point is very well taken, I know that there are small quaint kennels out there that do a very good job with their breeding and I am all about supporting the little guy.  All the ones I have time to research and found interest in I have visited, ( I have not visited Jim's kennel yet)  I can say, I have found very nice animals, but I can say Wayne's animals impressses just as much.  Please do not missunderstand me, I was in no way saying Wayne's lines were superior to everyone or anyone elses, what I was saying was that, the dogs he breeds have been trialed and surveyed, all the way back, which in itself does not mean he lines are superior, just that the animals he breeds are atleast meeting or exceeding the standard for the breed.  Lines are subjective according to what one likes and some fads now and then.  I like straight back working dog lines, I think they are superior, others do not, as an example.  

thanks for your thought, does Shelley Strohl have a website?

Gefahr,

Shelley should be back soon. She went out of town to get a showline puppy . Her website is www.frauengarten.net .

Dean and Karla Calderon in Oklahoma have nice dogs Their website is www.schutzhundsportdogsinc.com 

Sue and Gabor's website is www.k9imports.com They are located in Nashville.

Lee Hough is in the Pittsburgh area and has really nice dogs. Her website is www.wolfstraum.net I just checked her website and if you hurry, she might still have a nice sable male from her last litter, born in August.

Good luck in your search. And the offer stands, if you need me to look up litters in Germany or translate something, please let me know. I speak German fairly well!

Chris

I am home!

Shelley

Hi gefauhr,

You don't need to know a word of German, Flemish, or anything to visit Germany and Belgium. Most people there speak some to fluent English, and if they know you are coming, they'll rope someone in who speaks better English to help them out for your visit if necessary  :-)  Everyone is really freindly.  The road system is difficult unless you have a GPS in your car...which can be programed to respond in English and it will get you about anywhere anytime day or night.  I'd go again by myself if I needed to without hesitation!  I'd love to go even if I didn't need to if I could get away!  It's not so expensive to go as many think, and you would have lots of fun.  Now I've talked you into it...can I go with you?  ~ Veronica

Well the issue is not the english to german speaking, it is the written part that really concerns me, Not having someone to reliably translate paperwork would be a concern.  I was stationed there in the military and yes I wish I had a GPS back then, the Polizei were not very friendly to americans with short hair, and it took several months before you work up enough nerve to pull out in the left hand lane!!  Im still looking, and OCONUS may still be an option if I dont find something that I want here

Drew wrote:I admire those who follow the system, and even though nothing is 100% perfect, the title and koer system is superior to doing NOTHING.

Christopher writes:

I admire those that produce good dogs. The there should be no religious type faith in any system.

Nobody is talking about doing nothing. There are other systems in the world and they are producing great dogs.

Have you ever known a dog that was able to get a Sch title but was unable to complete an AD? I haven’t.

Under the KKL system an otherwise perfect dog with a floppy ear, curled tail, too much white, ect. is excluded. IMO this is a travesty. The only thing that should cause a dog to fail are things that preclude a dog from working. I believe that the KKL system has become counterproductive.

v. Stephanitz wrote about the collapse of the first GSD club. "...the party which bade fair to gain the preponderating influence was the one which saw in the shepherd dog, not so much the real shepherd dog, i.e.the working dog with his excellent characteristics, as the possibility of turning him into a "fancy dog" with erect ears at all cost, and possibly with a wolf like appearance; while with others considerations of the monetary value of a striking dog were not without influence...."

The same thing his happening now.

Under the KKL system an otherwise perfect dog with a floppy ear, curled tail, too much white, ect. is excluded. IMO this is a travesty. The only thing that should cause a dog to fail are things that preclude a dog from working. I believe that the KKL system has become counterproductive.

There is SO much wrong with this suggestion I don't have time to go through it all in writing. We have a standard. there are REASONS for the standard. I am GLAD for both. Plenty of folks do NOT breed to the standard. As a trainer, I am often the unhappy witness for what happens when people ignore the standard. I'm getting a bit tired of taping ears for the hapless owners of the dogs produced by those people, not to mention the temperament issues arising when they bring them here for training. The Korung is not perfect, but its the best we have. I for one will continue to breed under the SV guidelines. There are too many crappy dogs as it is. No point in/reason for creating more IMO.

I sure hope Christopher is not breeding floppy earred, curly tailed dogs with a lot of white on them.

SS

SS wrote: I sure hope Christopher is not breeding floppy earred, curly tailed dogs with a lot of white on them.

Christopher writes: I hope that’s not what you got from what I wrote. If it is, I hope your not breeding anything; yourself nor dogs. But if I did breed dogs as you describe, they would be healthy and work. That should be the most important thing about a GSD.

Maybe your reading comprehension is low and your obviously a bit thick, so I’ll try to explain things a bit more clearly for you. The breed test for the GSD was developed a long time ago in a land far, far away. We are now in a new land, and at a different time. There are other breeding system in the world that produce good working dogs. The GSD breeders should look at those and try to learn as much as they can. "The Father" of the GSD said it was a bad thing to choose cosmetics or money over the working characteristics of the dog. I agree with him. There seems to be many people that feel the working character of the GSD is going bye-bye. It may be time to look to make a new system and not hold onto the old one like the little boy in Peanuts holds his blanket.