working dog prices?? - Page 7

It is amazing what all "The Father" supposedly has said and done. Fact is that he and his group of fanciers held  and attended early conformation shows and he is also the one who started the breed survey system. We will never agree on this and should let it rest. Everybody just picks from the Rittmeister's statements what he/she deems worthy.

The breed survey sytem is nothing new. It had been done long before with horses and live stock. That is where von Stephanitz derived it from. It has nothing to do with showdogs, but it is a breed suitability test. The conformation aspect is only part of it! We have a breed standard and should breed the dogs accordingly!

Chris

Are you saying that my quote is not true or out of context?

We never have to agree, but we can still put our ideas on the table can't we. Or is everything so perfect that nothing ever needs to change?

Now let’s let’s talk horses and livestock.

The fastest horse is the Thoroughbred. The sole breeding criteria is whether or not the horse can run fast and/or produce fast horses. Conformation has nothing to do with it. Do you think that a triple crown winner with a floppy ear wouldn’t get bred?

The best meat producing cattle are mixed breeds. Are you now suggesting that we cross some new blood into the GSD? I’m shocked! When Raiser brought up the idea a few years ago those of your ilk almost barfed up your brei. Why the sudden change of heart? Not that I’m complaining about your change.

If you like I will discuss more livestock, but I’m sure you get my point. I’m well aware that breed test are far older than the GSD. But you should also be aware that when it comes to performance livestock the sole criteria is performance and producing performers. Is the GSD a performance animal or not? If it’s a showdog, why make the pretensions of it being a performance dog? I think people should have what ever type of dog that makes them happy. But don’t piss on my head and try to convince me that it’s raining

CS - your comparisons are ALL off.   TBs are indeed bred with correct conformation in mind - if not a priority.  The Keeneland yearlings are chosen and rated by agents of FT for not only pedigree but conformation.  Only the best of both  make the summer sales.  The others with lesser ratings are allocated to less prestigious sale dates and venues.   In fact, Seattle Slew - maybe you have heard of him, sold for $17,500 because he had a crooked front leg.  Sure he could run.  But his conformation was not perfect and it affected his price as a youngster.  And he was a great sire - compared to Secretariat who ended up producing a high number of pukes.  Pretty as he was.   Then you have the thousands of young horses who break down every year because they are NOT STRUCTURALLY SOUND.   If you don't think horsemen look at the legs on young TBs, you need to go to any sale in the country.  Heck, vets are running around iwth x-ray machines to do legs at all the sales -  hocks, knees, pasterns - they want to see the structure both inside and outside.  I don't know about meat animals, but I suspect there is more to that than you say as well.  

Conformation is ONE PART of the whole dog.  I am not defending highline dog breeders here, but saying that you have to look at the conformation in a dog with good working ability too.  Pastern length will cause soundness problems.  too long a back will end up giving you an injury in a hard hitting dog.  What good is a dog who has drive out the wazoo if it can't walk?  Sure, the AD is a PIA, but hey, I have seen working dogs with G and SG conformation do these with NO conditioning and pass, and yes some fail, and highline dogs who were conditioned have problems.  There is a big difference in my mind between function and fashion.  You need to understand that just because I say I believe in doing the koer, that does not make me - or others with working dogs - "show" people.  No, I will never have, breed to or want a VA black and red dog.  But I don't want a GSD that looks like a narrow bodied, headed crooked legged drive covered in fur with teeth animal either.  I want it to look like a shepherd - like the Rin Tin Tin of the 40's - who WAS a dark sable dog - not the washed out one on TV in the 60's.

are you people jealous and envious of these breeders who charge for quality pups. with advertising cost ,vet bills , food costs, registrations fees , three year   writtem warrantees on pups , capital coats for fencing and welping boxes ,   heat lamps , stud fees , travelling cost to studs , hotel costs at studs' city ,

2500.00  is fair for a quality and excellent pup. if you think  $ 2500 .00 is too much go to a back-yard  breeder.

Peter Cadman
Kitchener / Waterloo,  Ontario, Canada.
Crosshill Kennels, 519-699-5589- res.    519-897-6757  cell
www.germanshepherddog.tv
Friendly, beautiful, large boned,    high energy,  loyal,  easily trained, german shepherds dogs.
Family orientated, not aggressive .
Durable.
smart and keen.
Pups are  handled daily.

$300.00  deposit,   reserves  your pup on the next litter.
See the  web site for details on  reservation deposits.

Puppies are sold with the following COMPLEMENTARY ITEMS.
Canadian Kennel Club Registered.
Micro-chip for identification purposes
Sales contract.
Temperament guarantee.
All pups are sold with a three year written health   guarantee.
Two sets of shots prior to  leaving our kennel
 De-wormed weekly.
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One months supply of food, lamb chicken rice formula TLC.
Frozen beef  knuckle bones.
60 day  pet plan health  insurance voucher CKC..
Crosshill Kennel owners information and training  manual included.

West German Blood  Lines ..

Said by a "breeder" that has more ads than content in his post. That’s Classic!

BTW, I don’t breed.

Drew, I said the horses were BRED because they run fast or they produce those that run fast. Further, The Keeneland is an evaluation for sale. It is not an evaluation to remove hoses from the breeding program. It’s not a breed test! Keeneland is no different than a person evaluating a puppy for purchase or the breeder ranking the puppies and selling them to the homes that they believe are appropriate. And as much as we all try to get the best puppy, we all know that it’s still a gamble.

But you then went on to prove my point perfectly. And I thank for that! Seattle Slew had a crooked front leg. And went on to become not only one of the greatest racehorses but also a good producer. If he were evaluated in the same way as the GSD is evaluated he would have been precluded from breeding no matter how fast he could run.

CS wrote: I hope your not breeding anything; yourself nor dogs.

CS- Too late. I don't produce a lot of puppies, but I am very proud of the dogs I breed. Happily, an inodinately high percentage of them work very well and all are bred to the SV standard: My problem is the same as everyone else's in this country: getting enough pups into dedicated working homes. Still, my customer satisfaction rate is very high, for which I am grateful.

Let's not compare apples to oranges. Being a former jouneyman jockey, (for 9 years, major West coast tracks) I understand very well the object of the thoroughbred breeding program. Although old superstitions say that a lop-earred horse will always give its all, and I did know one race horse with a seriously swayed back who won a few races, the truth is that unless the horse has reasonably good conformation it won't be able to run fast enough to bother spending money to train it and will probably sore up/sustain serious injury before it could be conditioned to race-ready even if some idiot did try to train it. Try to buck the odds = kiss your money good-bye. No need for a breed survey. Ha ha ha. The meat cattle comparison is so far out there it wasn't worth mentioning.

Perhaps the German Shepherd Dog is just not your breed.

SS

No Chris - what I was trying to say that even those less than perfect, those less than HIGH PRICED PERFECT in appearance can be sucessful.  You are preaching to the choir yet contradicting yourself.  The workng dogs are not "perfect" in conformation.  Yet are sucessful in work.  They are NOT however, bred by careing responsible breeders (and LOL I agree with your comments on the idiot above who is shooting himself in the foot here) if they are not reasonabley balanced in drive and correct enough to stay sound in the work - not necessarily  "perfect".  the koer allows us to evaluate our dogs in both drive and soundness and then demonstrate that we are breeding to the standard - not the fashion.

I am not Drew. I am Shelley.

Actually the comparison IS somewhat relevent. Seattle Slew had a SLIGHTLY crooked leg as a yearling.  Few people buy horses at Keenland without some aspirations of future breeding potential, especially fillies. We all know animals of all species may grow out of crooked limbs/conformation issues with development. That's why the breed survey is conducted at AGE 2 instead of sooner.

Secretariat too, was slightly crooked as a yearling, toed-out in his early Jockey Club ID pix. I have a swell picture of Penny Tweedy standing in front of him with her hands pointing East-West and a furrowed brow. She won him on a coin toss. Lucky Penny (pardon the pun) There probably isn't much you can tell me about thoroughbred pedigrees. I think breeding top GSD's, consistently beautiful in the ring AND with temperament and working ability to excel on the trial field, is LOT harder than breeding fast horses, but that's just my opinion. Temperament is not so important in race horses, not well-considered by breeders. Case in point: Ever try to break a colt from linebred on fleet Nasrullah? Ever see an Advance Guard colt that didn't flip sooner or later? Ever see an intact Hoist the Flag colt that wasn't a lazy ass around the barn all afternoon and a terror in the stall at doing up time?

JMO

SS

Drew, I that I believe that all dogs bred under the SV system are show dogs. For me, this is not a work vs, show argument. It seems to be the GSD fancier’s instinct to believe that that is always the argument. In this case it’s not. I know that many "working" GSDs can’t do the work due to poor conformation. And I believe that is, in part, due to the breed system.

Secondly, I believe that the animals that are most efficient in the work are those that have the best conformation. Form should follow function. More often than not best working dogs do not do well in shows. So obviously when you have a conformation standard that does not correlate with those dogs that do the best work something is wrong with the system.

What I am exploring is the idea that a change may be need to either the standard and/or the breed test.

There must be a reason why every GSD fancier I know, that as been in the breed for a couple of decades or more says the dogs are not as good as they used to be.