working dog prices?? - Page 9

Gustav,

In our search for our Mali pup I spoke with several different Mali breeders, and all of them are absolutely consistent on one point... the working ability of the dog is the #1 priority.  Not titles, not papers, not color, not pedigrees.  Drive and temperament is what they breed for, and so drive and temperament is what they get.  The Malinois is not a "popular" breed and so there is little incentive for breeders to crank out the puppies for profit. 

There is no show/work split because it's all work.  I'm sure there are a few Mali breeders in the US who breed for the show ring, but apparently not enough to make a difference. There are no Mali breeders that I could find that produce roach backs or over-angulation.  Nor could I find one that stubbornly insisted that a conformation rating was necessary for "correct working structure". 

The GSD breed has too many breeders going in too many directions and that lack of consistency is evident.

I wish I could claim some credit for our Mali's performance, but she came right out of the box with all that potential bred into her.  The first day off the plane at 8 weeks old when I wiggled a burlap rag in front of her she chased it and bit hard and full.  I can honestly say it's the first time I've seen a dog with a deep, full genetic grip like that.  The first time I sent her for a long bite on the helper she flew down the field and launched.  I didn't make that happen, nor did the helper bring it out of her.  She is genetically wired that way.  Seven years and I'm still looking for a GSD of such quality.

So every time I see that smug grin on hubby's face I get the urge to strangle him.  

Yvette

Yvette, two great post! Gotta love it when honesty meets accuracy.

Yvette, I was tempted to tell you yesterday that  Christopher Smith is a Malinois person, not GSD. So, the two of you have something in common. It is a shame that you have not found any quality GSD. I was under the impression that you had this beautiful male you were writing about a while ago. Czech, if I am not mistaken? What happened to him? I actively participate on the German workingline board and I can tell you that there are lots of quality GSDs out there. IMO, the problem here is that working line breeders in this country do not go the extra mile and find suitable breeding partners for their females. They either breed to points or for convenience, that is it. The ones which are different are countable on two hands. We just had our first workingline litter and I can tell you that I spent a few months researching it. I did not breed to points or placements, but matched my female up by what I thought was what I was looking for. The most important aspect was to see what both animals had produced in the past. So far, I am happy with what I can see in these puppies. I have received tons of compliments from Germany as well on this match! So, I hope that you will get lucky and find your GSD as well. Remember, never buy a male puppy with an undescended testicle, regardless of what people tell you! Ear problems happen in any line, you need to look at offspring of the parents if you can! As to Malinois, these two breeds should not be compared. We don't compare apples with oranges either! Yes, Malinois are very impressive in their speed and drive. To each their own! I don't know much about them, because they never appealed to me. But I do want to mention one thing that I read on the German workingline board (if you can read German, you should visit it: www.schaeferhund.net, it is huge and frequented by DVG, ADRK, the Mali people  and a lot of other members): They have stated that they are seeing more and more back problems in the Malis as well! Don't crucify me, this is what I read! I thought I would mention it here. Some of the hardcore people there prefer the KNPV dogs.

Christopher, I will never advocate mixed breedings. But we had this discussion just recently on the German board, and after what I heard and read there, I have to agree that a well bred mix is better anytime than a bad purebred example. Now,  I am not talking about the average mutts, but the intentionally cross-bred dogs. The example besides the KNPV dogs was a Rottweiler-GSD mix to be used for large livestock (supposedly nothing better than that mix). Both parents of these puppies were titled and breed surveyed (ZTP for the Rottie). There was also an ad for intentionally bred puppies out of a GSD sire and a Mali mother (both also titled, show rating etc.). But, and that is a big problem (especially here in this country): What happens with the rest of the puppies who won't make the cut?

BTW, this is a little late now but I did want to answer this. No, your quotes from the Rittmeister are not wrong or out of context, but they do not include the whole picture. He did advocate breed surveys and shows, but only as a total test for the dog, inn addition to the working trials. I wish I could find my special edition of the SV magazine, I know I did not throw it out. It was published in 1999 for the 100 year  anniversary of the SV and contained an interview with Herta von Stephanitz, the Rittmeister's daughter. Very interesting! I never said that you don't have a point, you are just too one-sided to the opposite extreme, lol. I do like your newest statements about the p... on the head and the rain, but the one you made on our board about the wife and the twin is still unbeaten. We still laugh about that one!

Yvette, I just remember: You do live in WV, right? Did you go to the Regionals in Winchester, VA? We did and my 10 year old daughter just loved watchi

all i can say is someone hasn't seen enough GSD's or Mal's.  There are indeed showline mal's.  There are lots of them with nerve issues to the point of danger, there are allergy problems, major ones in fact, and there are lots of breeders cranking them out some having 5-6 litters on the ground at a time a couple times a year.  Just wait, the problems wont' be getting any better.

of course there are GSD breeders and dogs like this as well.

7 years and you've never seen a GSD puppy get off a plane and go after a burlap bag, with a full calm grip??? Never seen one that didn't have a rocket long bite??? Where have you been looking?

I defineatly don't want a GSD/Mal debate, I do like them both, and a good one is a good one to me.

There are plenty of good dogs in this country. Problem is the small number of good, DEDICATED handlers to train them.

Shelleys right - plenty of good pups, and a few fantastic ones too.  But when you read on the net, and fall in love with color or some male who was bought for color or on strength of his grandparents or get on a bandwagon for DDR or czech or whatever and get pups from a  breeder whos pumping out pups and next to nothing is titled from lots of litters of the kennel or  parents or the parents are marginally titled or not titled it is much chancier to get anything good.  Everyone thinks they can just buy 2 dogs and breed and get great pups.  Maybe in 5 or 10 years many of the people here will figure out what this is all about.  There are tons of litters advertised here that have nothing to commend them other than they have a few famous dogs 3 or more generations back.  Topdollar being asked too.

Chris - yep.  Only a handful of people out there apparently working and titling their pups or putting them in working homes.  Thanks for the above links.  I like a couple of them.

Chris - I give up.  You are either playing with words or are dense.  And I don't think you are dense.  You just like to goad and argue.  I won't buy a pup because some yayhoo says the dogs parents are good.  I want to see certificiations.   And I have yet to see a socially strong confident mali who can function in the home as a companion, do the work in sport, and be a true protection dog.  Grips and speed are not the be all and end all.

GSDxMali crosses are cheap for smaller depts and if they work, you can get speed, smaller size and nerves and intelligence of the GSD.  IF they work.

Gustav:

How are these BYB Mali breeders continuing to produce good working dogs without titled parents , Ko'ers, etc. What the hell criteria are they usind to consistently provide these Working dogs for LEO. Because I remember when our breed CONSISTENTLY produced dogs for LEO. And I see so many GS today that really could'nt cut it as a LEO/militaty dog. Why aren't these Mali people ruining their breed? I'm very confused...somebody help me here.

Christopher:

I think you’re asking the questions they every breeder of working dogs should be asking themselves. But instead they prefer to put their head in the sand and pretend that other breeds and breeding systems don’t exist. It’s a shame.

First let’s look at the term you used "backyard breeder or BYB". What does it really mean? To me it has become a term that some breeders use to describe any breeder that they don’t agree with. If the person doesn’t follow the same breeding practices that they use, they are labeled a BYB and marginalized Instead a breeder should be judge by what they produce. Why should a person care about anything other than whether or not the puppy they are buying will grow up to suit their needs?

I think the main criteria that most Mali breeders, that I know, use is to looking at the dog in front of them. If a dog works well it will be bred. The only thing that will preclude a dog from being bred is a lack of working ability. If a good dog has no papers, he will get papers. Some of the top sires (dogs on the level of Fero or Mink) have had fake papers. Nothing stops a top working Mali from getting bred.

Another big factor is that there is very little money in Mals. They have very large litters. Nobody bats an eye at litters of 10+. And in those litters most of the pup will grow up and be healthy. Most are going to, at the very least, be able to attain sport titles. The average cost for a Mal pup is about $600-$800 in the US. So few people are in the breed to get rich. Most are just trying to produce a working dog better than their friends. Also with out all of the money involved owners tend to be much more honest about their dogs. They don’t have very much to loose if someone says something bad about their dog. Therefore, IMO, Mal folks tend to not get very upset if someone voices an opinion about their dog. The more opinions you hear about your dog the more likely you are to know your dog’s faults.

Oh my, my post was cut off!

The last part wasdirected at you, Yvette!

I wnated to know if you went to Winchester to watch the Regionals a few weeks ago. My daughter and I really liked the protection work of Hardy's Mali, who received first place. Hardy and Sabine breed Malis in WV and also have a traininng club there.

Drew, you are confusing me! Who did you address, Christopher Smith or me? Regardless, great post! I absolutely agree with you.

Chris

Chris, I’m not a "Malinois person", I’m a dog person. I love any type of dog that excels at was bred for. And I don’t care what it was bred for so long as it’s good at it. I have Malinois because they bring me the most joy. If I found another breed that brought me as much joy I would get one in a heartbeat.

I’m not going to get angry about the truth. Bad backs are a problem in Mals. So are seizures, nervousness and general craziness. All breeds have problems. But when compared to other breeds with similar function he is easily the healthiest.

I have a question for both you and Shelley. You both made statements about GSDs in this country. I really don’t see a big difference between the US and Germany. I have been to Europe and seen some great GSDs. But the dogs seemed pretty much the same as those in the US. I’m very open to the idea that maybe I have been to the wrong places at the wrong time. Do you know of any studies that prove a higher percentage of good dogs in Europe over the US? Everything from the SV and OFA seem to be the same at first glance. I’m open to an education.

I have seen your adds for your pups. I like the pictures and pedigrees of the parents. Hope all goes well with them and I hope to see them on the field in a few years.

I did notice that I never got an answer about the wife and the twins. What do you think?

Drew:Chris - I give up. You are either playing with words or are dense. And I don't think you are dense. You just like to goad and argue.

Christopher: You caught me Sherlock! What fun would these boards be if it were only idle gossip, ads and "look what cute thing my dog did today" post? And sometimes through the arguing, debating, goading and questioning we are forced outside of our comfort zone. And that's when the real fun starts. When people are not comfortable they sometimes say things and learn things that they never would have.

Drew: I won't buy a pup because some yayhoo says the dogs parents are good. I want to see certificiations.

Christopher: I wouldn't buy a pup on some yahoos opinion either. I want to see and work the parents, uncles, aunts and siblings. This difference is why you fail to understand anything I have written.